About the Author

Hunter Wallace
Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Occidental Dissent

52 Comments on "Beefs Seven: Trad Youth v. Hipster Racist"

  1. Well, some points to keep in mind:

    1. most normies are still somewhat fond of Christianity; so all this Christian bashing/pagan BS going on isn’t helping.
    BTW: Christianity didn’t prevent our ancestors from impaling muds.

    2. far from discouraging newbyes, the JQ is our best tool, proselitism-wise: push it, and push it hard!
    Conversely, those of us who still pussyfoot on this issue come out as sellouts.

    3. If you listen to the podcast with Red Ice and Enoch, you realize that the JQ is the elephant in the room.
    IIRC, MacDonald’s is the only one mentioned in the QA session by the attendees.

  2. Greg,

    You’ve confirmed here what we all suspect: that the NPI crowd discussed behind the scenes whether Heimbach should be allowed to attend, and decided that Heimbach would damage their brand by being there.

    Why not just be honest and admit that NPI has a brand like everyone else? The brand is urban, secular, cosmopolitan and gay friendly. That’s the image that NPI and its donors want to project to the public. Jack Donovan and Guillaume Faye aren’t perceived as being damaging to that brand, but a fat slob like Heimbach would leave a bad impression and be a turd in the punch bowl. We argue endlessly over our own brand.

    There’s no conspiracy here. There are male homosexuals who donate to WN organizations including Counter-Currents. And doesn’t he who pays the piper get to call the tune? Obviously, Spencer is of the view that those who are passionate about gay issues are welcome to participate at the NPI conference. He said so himself. I’m sure that is just the consensus opinion in that community.

    All I am saying is that different subcultures will appeal to different people – and that’s OK. Those who want to hang out with Lord Humonguous and all the twinks, dandies and male homosexuals are free to do so. Those who want to hang out with the rednecks, bumpkins and hillbillies can do their own thing somewhere else. And so can the total fascists and the Bronies and the Mantra Bots and the Klansmen in their cow pastures. It’s a big country.

  3. I once got suspended the banned from Stormfront when I admitted U liked Motown music and preferred certain Latina gals to bitter no fun Chicago Hillary lawyer types.

    The main conflict was I got on the wrong side of the Ron Paul Libertarian loon cult.

  4. Now that Greg has officially declared that I’m no longer his friend and I will no longer be welcome to post at Counter-Currents, I propose that Jack Ryan take my place as a C-C contributor.

    It’s painful to lose a long-held and cherished friend over all this. But if C-C can acquire a popular and talented writer, then there’s a rainbow at the end of this thunderstorm.

  5. Stormfront has its own brand and excluded Heimbach for his “Death to America” comments.

  6. Junius Daniel | November 9, 2015 at 8:05 pm |

    ‘This all proves, once again, how valuable real life networking and friend-making really is. Without it, we’re pretentious pseudo-intellects like the ones posting over at RADIX.’

    Anyone who knows enough to make such a phrase, as the aforegoing, is, whether he knows it or not, belying any application of the mild epithet, ‘pseudo-intellect’, or, at least, insofar as it might apply to him…

  7. The League has spent two years arguing over shit like flags.

  8. Matt, I was the last to know that we were no longer friends (if we ever were), and as you know it had nothing to do with this incident.

    Spencer was within his rights to exclude Heimbach. Was it within the rights of the Heimbach clique to lie about his reasons and try to stir up drama and infighting? So who is really the victim here? Not Heimbach because of Spencer’s actions, but the movement because of the actions of your group.

    Brad, it is clear from Spencer’s statement that he felt that Heimbach was not compatible with the message and image of NPI and he was excluded on those grounds. And I know now that really is his reason. Talk of behind the scenes machinations is just pandering to paranoids.

  9. Brad, you are right that this is a big movement. I wish Southern Nationalists all the best. I’ve made the meaning and lessons of this recent incident clear. My work here is done.

  10. Here’s what you said last night:

    “But purely by chance, I found myself chatting today with one of the people who made the case for excluding Heimbach to Richard Spencer. (None of them NPI donors, by the way.) According to this individual, the primary reasons were what can be inferred from Spencer’s statement: they did not wish to provide a “platform” to Heimbach to present a message and an image contrary to NPI’s message and image. They see Heimbach as a person with a record of courting media attention and saying stupid things that they find embarrassing. They did not want Heimbach talking to the media or debating antifa and protesters.

    They also think he’s a slob who makes White Nationalists look like losers. They weren’t arguing that he’s too fat and ugly for their frat. If that were a criterion, Sam Dickson would not have been on the program. It has everything to do with dress, grooming, and public deportment.

    Spencer was swayed and disinvited Heimbach.”

  11. Greg,

    You announced elsewhere that we’re no longer friends. I had assumed we still were, and didn’t think things were so vulnerable to a bit of temporal drama.

    I have stated at least a dozen times now that Spencer was within his rights to exclude Heimbach, and Heimbach and I have done the bare minimum to defend our project and limited my responses to the relevant parties. I suspect that SPLC was already planning to run with the gay thing, given their fixation on the gay thing which goes back to Tom Robb and such. Scott’s piece, which I had no control over, was just their lampshade to put on the story.

    Please take some time to remove my Super Admin from the WordPress so that I don’t have to worry about being fingered as a suspect if the site goes down. Make sure you have another person with those permissions or you’ll need to do some direct SQL hacking to get back into the site. I won’t pull anything shady, of course, but if I retain access, that adds problems for me. I haven’t touched TOO in years, yet web lore still has it that I am gathering up IPs and blocking comments willy-nilly there.

    And have your web guy update your plugins. Our projects are more frequently targeted by the usual suspects, so it’s imperative to keep on top with updates. There are no known security vulnerabilities between your last update and the current plugin revisions, but it’s best not to tempt the gods.

  12. So, there was a group discussion about it, and Spencer was swayed by those who thought Heimbach would damage NPI’s brand. Now you are saying we are encouraging paranoia by saying this goes on behind the scenes.

  13. RichardBird | November 9, 2015 at 8:25 pm |

    Hunter Wallace // November 9, 2015 at 12:52 am //

    “Celestial Time believes that race has to be the foundation of the movement. All this squabbling shows how people who believe that race is important are divided by culture and class.”

    Lets get real, discussion of white interests have always taken distant second place to discussion of Jews. If a jew becomes anti-jew they are treated as an honorary white by the same people. This is what happens when drooling intellectuals and school teachers take over any movement.

    And if you are seriously saying race is not important, then what are we doing here? Are we going to be mud people holding Confederate Battle Flags like they do in South America? I can assure you, those brown Confederates in South America look utterly ridiculous.

    Hunter Wallace // November 9, 2015 at 8:04 pm //

    “Stormfront has its own brand and excluded Heimbach for his “Death to America” comments.”

    Stormfront has its respectability to think of and so has the WN gay brigade and Spencer. Don’t you know that pro whites and Southern Nationalists are the most loved and respected people in America? lol

  14. Whites Unite | November 9, 2015 at 8:26 pm |

    Glad to hear that Jack Donovan is now an ex-Satanist. White advocacy is having a positive influence on him. By the time the dust clears, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is married (to a woman), has four children, and attends a conservative Presbyterian church. The same goes for Greg Johnson.

    White advocacy is based on love for one’s people. As a Christian I believe love is holy, and has beneficial influences.

    I predict that the sincere White advocates will, over time, drift away from radical traditionalism / New Right positions, and towards national conservative positions, for the obvious reason that national conservatism is successful and beneficial for our people, while radical traditionalism is at best marginalizing and useless, and at worst positively harmful.

    The world’s leading national conservative, Victor Orban, has successfully insulated the East-Balkan/Visegrad area from mass non-White immigration, slowed down the “refugee” influx into Europe as a whole, and he has reached a vast audience with a message essentially identical to the message of White advocates.

    What has Radical Traditionalism / New Rightism accomplished? They’ve published Rachel Haywire’s smut, promoted a pseudo-pagan revival based on “literature” such as Wickerman and Equus, promoted pan-Turanism, which drives a wedge between Hungary and the rest of Europe, given a platform to the weirdest ideas of Paul Gottfried’s favorite authors (man/animal hybrid chimeras? seriously?), and radically estranged themselves from 99.9999% of Whites by indulging in esoteric Hitlerism.

    Leftism destroys, conservatism rebuilds, and fascism eagerly stakes out a radical centrist position between these two extremes, while apathetic moderatism gets reluctantly dragged into a centrist position. As leftism becomes more malignant over time, so do its two shadows. The New Left (anti-White, anti-male, anti-morality) is the most malignant left to ever exist, and it is not surprising that its shadow, the New Right, should be the most malignant fascism to ever exist.

    Sincere White advocates (for instance, those who can be found at Trad Youth, Counter Currents, Occidental Observer, Alt Right etc.) turned to New Rightism / Radical Traditionalism largely because they failed to see the difference between moderatism and conservatism. In their disgust at moderatism falsely labeled as conservatism, they turned to fascism thinking it was the only alternative. Alternately, the turned to fascism because they were not yet willing to let go of certain aspects of leftism.

    But I do not get angry with them, because I know their intelligence and their sincere love for their people will force them towards real conservatism.

  15. Why is it damaging the movement to talk about NPI, but not to say all these things about Heimbach?

  16. I do have to say that the claim that donors call the tune at Counter-Currents is a slur. I assume that every donor is endorsing my project as it exists. If donors try to change my editorial direction, they are rapidly disappointed and shown the door. I tried telling one such person to just shut up and write checks, but naturally he got miffed and found the door himself. Donors who think that they can control organizations by waving their checkbooks are a huge problem. They are definitely one of the reasons why politics is so corrupt today. If the movement is to present a real alternative to politics as usual, we have to change this corrupt donor culture.

  17. Brad, Spencer never would have made a public statement about NPI if the Heimbach clique had not made a public fuss. Beyond that, what he said is true, and you know it.

  18. RichardBird | November 9, 2015 at 8:32 pm |

    @Whites Unite
    The new right will fail precisely because they are yet another group of second rate intellectuals following the latest “-ism”.

  19. Most of life is private, Brad. That should go without saying. To describe that fact in terms of behind the scenes machinations is pandering to a paranoid mentality.

  20. RichardBird | November 9, 2015 at 8:35 pm |

    Fight and squabble all you like. The only people that will take notice are the Hate Center, because they make millions from you.

  21. Matt wrote:

    Please take some time to remove my Super Admin from the WordPress so that I don’t have to worry about being fingered as a suspect if the site goes down. Make sure you have another person with those permissions or you’ll need to do some direct SQL hacking to get back into the site. I won’t pull anything shady, of course, but if I retain access, that adds problems for me. I haven’t touched TOO in years, yet web lore still has it that I am gathering up IPs and blocking comments willy-nilly there.

    And have your web guy update your plugins. Our projects are more frequently targeted by the usual suspects, so it’s imperative to keep on top with updates. There are no known security vulnerabilities between your last update and the current plugin revisions, but it’s best not to tempt the gods.

    Thanks. Done.

  22. Greg,

    Fair point.

    I saw the whole Raven Gatto fiasco. I don’t believe that donors have total control, but they do have leverage and have to cultivated, and are usually, but not always, of the same mind on the most important issues. In Raven Gatto’a case, I believe the issue was the Holocaust.

  23. Whites Unite | November 9, 2015 at 9:21 pm |

    RichardBird,

    I wouldn’t call them “second rate”. They are clearly intelligent, brave, and dedicated, with unfeigned love for our people.

    They just need to abandon their counter-productive ideology, and return to authentic European Christian tradition.

  24. Scott Terry | November 9, 2015 at 9:23 pm |

    Johnson’s not my friend anymore either. He’s repeatedly called me a liar. Do we really need those sorts of dishonorable sexual deviants associated with us?

    Call me a liar in real life, Johnson. I’ll teach you about old European chivalry.

  25. As I pointed out above, you said yourself that the matter was privately discussed and a collective decision was made that Heimbach was bad for NPI’s image.

    Why be two-faced about it? If that’s what these people really think, why aren’t they comfortable letting everyone else know about it?

  26. Celestial Time | November 9, 2015 at 10:00 pm |

    Ahhhhh….. and so begins the deafening roar of the howling banshee.

    Fuck it! This can all be settled with a good ol’ Loser Leave Town Cage Match. No biting, no spiting, no eye gouging, no opportunistic crotch grabbing or nipple twisting. Other than that, let’s see what you guys got.

  27. Hipster Racist has some new posts.

  28. To address a point made over there: I never went to the Bahamas to party with black women in 2010. I was living in Virginia at the time with some roommates. I did say on my blog at the time that I was taking a vacation to get away from insane internet drama – Beefs Mark 1. It was a good move and I needed to chill out and let the dust settle.

    Parrott later apologized for that. It was never anything more than a silly internet beef. It is long forgotten. In hindsight, it would be much easier if people just called up each other and said “I’m mad” and let that be the end of it before involving the internet. I later realized that I had overreacted to that experience and tried to forget about it.

    I also later settled the internet beef with Greg Johnson. Now I try to make light of these feuds with these threads.

  29. Is hipster racist a known entity? Not familiar with him.

  30. No one is disputing NPIs right to protect the project’s brand. But there’s a right way and wrong way to handle things. If this was merely a professional business decision unrelated to any homo issues, the Ayn Rand account and numerous other Spencer allies on this issue sure didn’t treat it that way on the Radix thread. On the contrary, they spiked the ball and danced in the end zone in Terry and Heimbach’s face — adding an element of unseemly triumphalism to a discussion about something that was supposedly just business. An air of celebration doesn’t usually accompany tough but routine and perfunctory business decisions in my experience.

    And while there were no formal accusations of Terry/Parrot directly colluding with the SPLC based on a strict reading of the grammar and syntax of the sentences that appeared on the thread, there were numerous posts that used the words “SPLC” and “Scott Terry” in close proximity to each other. That was unfair, as I think to reasonable readers it created a very invidious portrait.

    I can certainly believe that friends might spin facts to the advantage of a friend. In every dispute, there are three sides to the story, the first guy’s, the other guy’s and the truth. That’s common sense. But the notion Parrot/Terry — guys who have fought in the streets against violent scum — would make up complete bullshit with no truth to it all out of a malicious desire to harm other projects is not plausible. In fact, it’s risible.

    Moving on, as far Greg Johnson’s comments here in this thread go, I truly regret having to criticize them. I mean that sincerely and don’t care if anyone believes it. It’s the truth. CC publishes some very high quality content and some very heavy hitters, KR Bolton, Greg himself and others. Anyone with a three digit iq ought to know that and be grateful.

    But I’ve noticed a tendency in Greg lately in 2 or 3 discussions that I have seen to characterize fair and objective analysis that flows in directions he doesn’t care for as furtive, conspiratorial and paranoid. One might even call it an attempt to pander to gullible mentalities.

    Whatever. Again, no one cares that NPI wants a brand. It’s their project, time and money. But don’t piss on people and tell them it’s raining. If you want to bring pro-homosexual views into the wider racial community looking to NPI for leadership at what appears to be a critical juncture in the history of our race just say so FFS.

    And just be clear, yes, there is a difference between asking reasonable and rational people to tolerate discreet homosexuals in the community and one that we all admire who never makes an issue out of it and asking people to tolerate passion about “gay issues” in the movement. If NPI is heading toward full-on embrace not of discreet gays but gay issues, that is something people have a right to know. Making homosexuality normative is bad for whites. Over and out.

    So, my verdict is that this sordid incident is most likely exactly what it appears to be. No other inference makes sense given all of the circumstances and known facts. Some homosexuals, or passionate homosexual allies, decided to flex their muscle and drive out a flawed but honest young nationalist and critic of homosexuality, with subsequent triumphalism in the relevant thread that created the impression of a purge mentality at work, consequences be damned.

    It’s a confirmation of the homosexual stereotype that actually matters, men who place sex identity above the greater good desire to subordinate the best interests of the community to fragile homosexual sensibilities.

    These things have a way of blowing over. I certainly hope they do. But something feels different about this one. It’s far from a perfect parallel and I’m NOT suggesting that it is, but I sincerely hope the fallout from this incident doesn’t become a nationalist equivalent of the Buckley purge of Sobran that created permanent animosity and bitterness that can’t be overcome while the hour is growing late.

  31. Whites Unite // November 9, 2015 at 9:21 pm //

    “RichardBird,

    I wouldn’t call them “second rate”. They are clearly intelligent, brave, and dedicated, with unfeigned love for our people.

    They just need to abandon their counter-productive ideology, and return to authentic European Christian tradition.”

    Intellectuals that use “-isms” as a crutch are all second rate thinkers.

    I don’t see the alt right going anywhere, because they don’t have the discipline to focus on one issue. Its just the usual right vs left scatter brain BS, which means there is nothing to differentiate them. They could be in any country and be of any race.

    I get the impression intellectuals get bored easily. That’s why they’re always attaching themselves to the latest trendy “-ism” that will save the world – until they get bored and move on to the next “-ism”.

  32. @Lew
    Its quite simple. If they want to push their issues, they can do it right now. There’s already a powerful lobby just for them, far more powerful than WN or SN. Have you heard of it? Its called the gay lobby. I bet if they put their minds to it, they could get their own damned country.

  33. Read the Anglin article. I’m glad a people are finally catching on to that serpentine prick Liddell. I’m also glad I was ahead of the game in suspecting him of “serving the Jew.”

    Ostracism is the next step for anyone who doesn’t want to be tainted by association with that loony with a deserved loss of earned credibility.

    This a rout. One side has lost war of ideas here bad, and it’s not mine.

  34. Whites Unite
    ‘Glad to hear that Jack Donovan is now an ex-Satanist.’

    I didn’t know Jack Donovan was such a slimy pervert. How can normal men tolerate being in the presence of that twisted fag?

    Yet, he is respected, praised and welcomed by certain individuals, but Heimbach is shunned? LOL!

    http://www.dailystormer.com/alt-right-shamed-by-colin-liddells-bizarre-attack-on-the-daily-stormer/

  35. Looks the DS crowd is correct on this one. Spencer is taking a beating over there, as well as Liddell and the homosexual ex-satanist.

  36. I don’t think Donovan is responsible for Heimbach’s exclusion. I’ve never seen Donovan shrieking and calling for a litmus test.

    I could be wrong, but my impression is that Lord Humonguous knows he is an oddball, and isn’t one to cast stones. This whole “we need to be respectable” debate runs contrary to everything I have ever seen from Donovan.

  37. Afterthought | November 10, 2015 at 4:55 am |

    HW: The Right Stuff forums have buckled, perhaps because they have lost control of the narrative. They were heavily invested in the NPI conference and it cost them.

    The more time passes, the more solidly I am supporting Heimbach, and now Anglin against the shylocks of NPI. Can a person be too smooth? That is Richard Spencer to me. What was he doing in Hungary? Could be CIA.

    Is it true that Council of Conservative Citizens has trouble booking hotels in the deep south, but some how his “fashy” organization waltzes right in to the National Press Club?

    I recall the League of the South billboard in Mobile being yanked in real time, but these folks faced only 4 (four!) SJWs with some silly string in the heart of ZOG? Hmm…

  38. Afterthought | November 10, 2015 at 5:00 am |

    Correction: Montgomery, not Mobile, but the point certainly stands.

  39. Lew,

    It’s far from a perfect parallel and I’m NOT suggesting that it is, but I sincerely hope the fallout from this incident doesn’t become a nationalist equivalent of the Buckley purge of Sobran that created permanent animosity and bitterness that can’t be overcome while the hour is growing late.

    Neither side is strong enough to truly purge the other, and there’s a large and growing community of people who belong to neither faction who serve as a sort of gravity well pulling it all together. Folks may end up at separate lunch tables over this, but anybody trying to drive anybody out of the cafeteria will be escorted out of the cafeteria themselves by an unaligned mob which cares more about unity and forward motion than about either side in the dispute. And if and when somebody authentically deserves to be driven out of the cafeteria, it’ll be done by that mob, not by an opposing party.

    The big takeaway, as far as I’m concerned, is that up until now, it appeared there was more unity than there actually is, and it behooves the two parties to respectfully distance themselves a bit. I think this will amount to a moderate food fight which is already winding down, followed by some chairs rearranging in the cafeteria and everybody getting back to their business.

    Hunter,

    I don’t think Donovan is responsible for Heimbach’s exclusion. I’ve never seen Donovan shrieking and calling for a litmus test.

    Jack’s categorically not an actor in any of this. He’s sort of a hapless Ben Garrison-style victim of a viral social phenomenon which only peripherally relates to him. Between this, the Tom Robb incident, and the Majority Rights thread, it’s clear that God’s getting even with him for his Satanism phase.

  40. Celestial Time | November 10, 2015 at 5:11 am |

    Amazing that Afterthought believes success in carrying out things in the real world is tantamount to “ZOG” approval and subversion. Maybe that kind of white trash thinking has been the stumbling block of pro-White groups in the past? Hmm…

  41. Yes, I don’t associate Donovan with the pink swastika, even though they have no problem embracing him.

  42. What’s going on at The Right Stuff?

  43. I’m watching Sons of Anarchy right now. I have never seen the show before. The pink swastika is kind of like one of the biker gangs on here.

  44. Lew, you need to walk this back. The fact that there has been a storm of controversy about Heimbach and homosexuality does not mean that Heimbach’s story is true. It just means that a lot of people, myself included, have been deceived by a lie cooked by by the Heimbach faction. Spencer’s reasons were what he said they were. Why would the Heimbach faction cook up that particular lie? Because it is a predictable source of conflict. Why would they want to do that? Multiple reasons are possible: a desire to harm NPI, perhaps a desire to help Trad Youth, perhaps just a neurotic need for attention.

  45. Afterthought | November 10, 2015 at 5:36 am |

    HW: The Forum is down. Perhaps for technical reasons, but a discerning fellow would notice that the forum was become a wild west shootout.

    Celestial Time: Hal Turner had a lot of real world success as well, was that because he was an FBI informant or despite that fact? What I am questioning is whether or not this is a success at all. We have Trump, after all, who is an actual real world success; the election makes these beefs into a side show.

    Bottom line: by throwing out Heimbach, they fucked up royally; and not only haven’t “they” walked that back, they are going after Anglin. The wannabe Buckley of the alt-right and his fellow travelers are not doing the things that good leaders do (to include calling people white trash, that’s a real winner as well).

    As HW has correctly pointed out over the years, the “movement” is full of a lot of dysfunctional people. Myself, I am a family man, and focus on that and my career. I salute those that take more risks, but I also wonder who is not actually taking a risk, and is actually on the other side?

  46. I think of Jack Donovan as like Gilad Atzmon or Thomas Sowell — a man so utterly different from the general class that he he belongs to and in a positive way it makes no sense to think of him as part of that class, same-sex attracted men in his case. I’m pretty sure, though not positive, that Donovan doesn’t identify himself using the label “gay” anyway. In fact, in that book Androphilia, from what I remember, he attacks the lurid post-Stonewall “gay culture” that US elite culture has been glorifying for 50 years for its corrosive effects on white culture and the white gene pool. I believe firmly just about all of the anti-gay commentary in the vulgar sense that he gets is misplaced.

  47. Afterthought | November 10, 2015 at 5:42 am |

    Mike Enooch on the forum crash:

    Mike Enoch posted 14 minutes ago
    7

    Sheeeeeit. The forum crashed due to too many pozz loads. I had to scale up the server to the next size, which should suffice temporarily. Unfortunately the data for the last few days was lost, but all things considered that may not be a bad thing. This is because the db is an in memory db, so if it crashes and the db dump fails, we are fucked. I am working on moving over to mongo db and also installing SSL, so never fear.

  48. Matt/Greg: duly noted. I think I’ve said all I have to say anyway and yeah, it looks like the topic is about played for now.

  49. I’m going to throw this out there as a possibility: when such matters are debated and decided in private by insiders who have appointed themselves as an elite, it inevitably leads to speculation because of the lack of transparency.

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