44 Comments

  1. That travelogue can only be understood if you read a subsequent chapter of that book. Just click on my real name above (not “Chechar”, please) and you’ll hit it…

  2. The DS article ends by prescribing the cure of ‘Hitler, the ultimate symbol (…) what our very bones are calling out for’ — which might be true for Germans but NOT for OTHER White peoples who are not German and have different ‘symbols’. Besides, Hitler and Nazism were too ‘theologically’ flawed and deficient.

  3. Why is it when I read about these people, I’m reminded of a hamster in an exercise wheel? Oh yeah, they go round and round and go nowhere!

  4. I started reading the Anglin article, but it went on and on, until I gave up.

    Do these people do street activism? Do they go out leafleting? Do they talk to ordinary people? I’m betting the answer is no.

  5. EricD,

    According to some commenters, yes, they do.

    I agree with Mosin, different nations/people need different symbols. For us, it may be Robert E. Lee or whoever, but Hitler definitely doesn’t work for everyone.

    I just wish these folks would stop arguing with each other. No enemy to the Right!

  6. As I’ve told you numerous times, money talks, bullshit walks. These people for the most part have no money, and can’t raise money. If they had money, and any real world clout they would not have time to engage in this silly stuff. I don’t know why you even bother with it.

  7. ‘money talks, bullshit walks. These people for the most part have no money, and can’t raise money. If they had money, and any real world clout’:

    Truth is stronger than money.

  8. Hitler is “not my bag,” but this feud is fun to watch as a spectator.

    How long until the novelty and “fun” wears thin? Yes, I know you try to stay active in the real world; but maybe you aren’t being utilized to a high enough degree to where you can clearly see that this circus BS is like a black hole that never stops trying to pull everything into a singularity — even spectators.

    • I’m about to head over to Ferguson.

      I drove through there after the local CofCC meeting on Sunday, but my smartphone battery died just as I was getting off I-270 on to W. Florissant Ave. I saw the QuikTrip that was destroyed by looters and lots of boarded up businesses. Yesterday, it rained all morning and afternoon, and I had other plans last night.

  9. ‘I can see how this circus BS is caused by anonymity and the internet’:

    Aren’t at least SOME of these ‘beefs’ in fact valid and important disagreements about fundamentals? Do you consider the blog ‘Daily Stormer’ along with Countercurrents, Alt Right, etc. in the category of fruitless nonsense activity caused by the internet and anonymity? Many take the opposite position that internet informing is an extremely powerful weapon (the pen mightier than the sword) often requiring anonymity to wield successfully.

  10. ‘Because I am so active in the real world’:

    Many anonymous ‘pamphleteers’ of the internet are just as active in person in the real world (especially on the local level) but not in the same groups you are active with.

  11. Mosin, he’s talking about squabbles. Anonymity is what causes infighting, but if people know each other in real life, then there’s less a chance of people having these little flame wars, is what he’s saying.

  12. Mosin is perfectly right. At least we have something to argue about.

    when you have nothing, you cant argue about anything, therefore you can have the illusion of agreement.

    @Logan

    Who gets to decide what is a “squabble” and what is not? Isn’t that just cheap labeling?

    What if these people actually mean what they say?

    Daily Stormer has created an uneasy situation, because it attracted more viewers in one year, than the rest of them in a decade.

    Im pretty sure, that if a popular Southern Nationalist site would emerge, with different views and positions as the LoS, attracting thens of thousands of visitors, Mr Hunter Wallace and his compatriots would be running around like beheaded chicken, not having the slightest clue what to do.

    It is easy to grin childishly, when it is not about you. But what goes around, comes around.
    When everybody will be laughing at you, it will suddenly be not so fucking funny anymore.

    • When I was involved with WN, I argued with people all the time.

      There are some legendary “beef” articles in our archives. Like I said earlier, it got so bad that Harold Covington wrote an entire novel about me (Freedom’s Sons) in which I was cast as the President of the United States and his arch-enemy. Of course, Harold defeated me with his legions of sockpuppets before the US government made peace with the Northwest Front to stop Harold from overrunning its territory and killing even more Jews.

      We don’t have that problem in the SN movement. Unlike WNs, we use the internet as a tool like a cell phone, not as an escapist alternative to reality. We all know each other in real life and work together in the real world on a regular basis. Because we are not afraid to be seen in public, we have built trust and solidarity within our movement, and even when there are disagreements, they don’t degenerate into bitter feuds.

      The same is true to a limited extent within the WN movement. People like James Edwards, Paul Fromm, Don Black, Jared Taylor, Gordon Baum (my father-in-law) don’t fight with each other. They don’t fight with each other because they have known each other for years, often decades, through the CofCC. The people who are constantly fighting with each other are almost always strangers to each other in real life who are only acquainted through the internet.

      WNs argue so much because …

      1.) They lack a common culture, ethnicity, and religion.

      2.) They value “ideas” above action and thus multiply potential sources of division.

      3.) They are disorganized.

      4.) They use the internet to create an alternative to the real world.

      5.) Trolls and misfits thrive in the anonymity of cyberspace.

      6.) They are strangers to each other in the real world which translates into a low trust, low social capital movement where relationships are easily frayed.

      The “beefs” are just a side effect of the list above.

  13. As far as I understand, all these people involved in “beefs” (a more precise world would be: political disagreements) are real people with real names. Therefore your argument about “nameless trolls escaping to an alternate reality” is totally irrelevant.

    Yes, we have trolls among us, but there are methods to get rid of them, plain and simple.

    BTW, this phrase:

    “They use the internet to create an alternative to the real world”

    is a wholesale description of the whole WN movement, an as such, patently false.

    It is very easy to fabricate caricatures about “autistic adults living in mommy’s basements”, and I imagine it would be equally easy to conjure similar caricatures about Southern White people.

    “They don’t fight with each other because they have known each other for years, often decades, through the CofCC.”

    And how does it work for them? Are they attracting legions of followers?

    “They are strangers to each other in the real world which translates into a low trust, low social capital movement where relationships are easily frayed.”

    Long-term, high-trust high-social capital investment relationships, for example marriages fail every dang day.

    Another ting: the more “tightly knit” acommunity is, the more possibility is there, that an FBI plant is involved. It has happened basically with every busted organization. There was a mole from the get-go, or they blackmailed somebody into cooperation (reduced sentence if he squeals, etc). It’s always the same story.

    If everybody is anonym, having a snitch is just not as effective, as with a ‘real’ community. Upside and downside, I suppose.

    I think this WN disagreement will work itself out, and for the better. What the Stormer did was stirring a pot a little, and that is always a good thing.

    • Re: European Light

      1.) I was referring to the countless anonymous posters who spend 100 percent of their time arguing, infighting, and sowing division with other WNs on the internet. 99 percent of the movement is online. Only a small fraction of WNs use their real names. A fraction of those are activists.

      2.) How many of the people listed in the “beefs” threads above really know each other in real life? Very few of them. They are reacting to other people who are merely internet acquaintances and assuming the worst about them.

      3.) In my experience, trolls and malcontents thrive on the internet, but they don’t last that long in real life, if they even bother to show up.

      4.) It’s not a caricature of the WN movement. Generally speaking, they are afraid to do anything in the real world, so they hang out on the internet under anonymous, disposable pseudonyms where they fight with each other over small differences and clashes in personality. It is the social context of the internet that creates this dysfunctional culture of infighting. The internet brings out the worst in people, not just in WNs, but because WNs rely almost exclusively on the internet (this is due to fear), it distorts the movement in all kinds of ways.

      5.) More was going on in the early 1990s before the internet. They’ve used the internet to attract legions of followers (WN sites are popular), but education and outrage don’t translate into much into real life.

      6.) If marriages fail every day, WN relationships often don’t even get to the first date.

      7.) That’s been a problem in organizations which are inclined to violence.

      8.) I don’t think so.

      As far as I can tell, nothing has changed in the last five years, or the last ten years, or in the last 13 years that I have been paying attention. The problems that WN has today are the same problems that existed back then.

  14. 1) My one and only inspiration in “WN”(I prefer to call it NS-National Socilism, anyways) was the DS. I dont frequent other forums, simply bc i get bored of them. OD is an exception, bc I was curious about contemporary southern Nationlism. So when it comes to white nationalists, I can only speak about the people I know from there. And i can say with gret confodence, that the majority of thise people come across to me as trustworthy and honest. So your decription about WN’s certainly dont ft the DS crowd. And since DS is by far the most popular far-right forum, I think it lends credibility to my argument.

    2) I dont know, but you dont have to know somebody to have a debate over an ideological difference. I debate with people don’t know every day. I can spot pretty easily who is a loser and who is a player. The writers at DS are certainly players. They write very good and thoughtful articles. It is just my impression, but I think you may agree.

    I am not assuming the worst neither about them, nor about the commenters. When I see a debate that revolves around a misunderstanding, I try to mediate. As many times as i tried, it has always worked so far.
    It is just a guess of mine, but maybe you encountered a different bunch of WN people, and that colored your experience in a negative way.

    3) “Show up”, like for a demonstration? that can be said about many people, not just trolls. A lot of people who dont show up are otherwise more-or less average guys, they just dont have the balls or the commitment.
    Besides that the geography of the US is different, there are huge distances and basically no public transportation. US city centres generally lack the ‘unity’ (historic city centre for example) that can be found in Europe. It is just a huge alien concrete jungle. In Europe, even the remotest of villges have sidewalks and bus stops along the street. You just dont have it in America.

    4) “The internet brings out the worst in people”
    I highly doubt if that is true. It sounds a little bit cynical, aint it? I wonder what General Patton has to say about this.
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgespa126032.html

    I’ve met all sorts of people on the internet, good and bad. One simply cannot generalize.

    BTW, you are also on the internet, writing posts and engage in discussions regularly. So it brings the worst out of you too? Of course it isn’t.

    One thing is dead certain: if you expect the worse in people, they will (re)act accordingly.

    5) “education and outrage don’t translate into much into real life.”

    A great universal liberal misconception (I had fallen prey to it too), is that people need to be “educated”. Once we educated enough number of people, the society will change.
    Well, that is false. People want to follow leaders. This jas laways has been, and always will be. Its just human nature. So the question is: are there around leaders (or at last leader material) to follow.

    6) My point was, that even long-term relationships are no automatically fail-safe guaranteed, you have to work on it constantly, be it a virtual or non-virtual one.

    7) Well I’m pretty sure that the FBI knows quite well what transpires in the LotS. BTW, the founding fathers were also “inclined to violence”, that’s how they kicked out the Brits, right?

    “The problems that WN has today are the same problems that existed back then.”

    I think that has to do with a lot of factors. First, WN is mainly an Anglosphere thing, and that indicates people from 3 continents (I counted England to Europe although I’m sure they would be outraged hearing that), second, Americans, the main bunch of WN-s have no united culture (but at least four) therefore they cannot reach a conclusion in regads to anything, third, total media machinegun-indoctrination works, and fourth, the infrastructure is inadequate to mobilize great masses.

    My main point of concern is that : -by covering the “beefs” so extensively, you indirectly made the WN movement to appear as ridiculous;

    -You posed a contrast with the SN movement (“see how united and better we, SN-s are, compared to these guys?)

    None of the above assertions are necessarily true.

    I understand that Southern Nationalism seems much more united and effective compared to WN, but here is the news. Looking from a European perspective, y’all have a very, very long way to go.

    Humility, Brother.
    Peace.

    • Re: European Light

      1.) Daily Stormer is a new website.

      It wasn’t around a few years ago. I’m not very familiar with it, but Stormfront is the most popular pro-White website. I’ve been observing the English-speaking WN scene for 13 years now. From what I have seen, Daily Stormer isn’t that different from the other WN websites that I am more familiar with, except perhaps for being more explicitly pro-Nazi. Hell, you obviously have Harley (aka NYYankees) over there stirring up her usual shit.

      2.) That’s true.

      You don’t have to know someone in real life to have a debate on the internet. That’s the problem. The anonymity of the internet is not the same thing as talking to someone face to face. Internet relationships are more fragile. There is less trust, less civility, more misunderstandings, more acrimony, more paranoia on the internet. When people use disposable anonymous pseudonyms to debate with each other, particularly when they are strangers or have limited contact in real life, they are more likely to get into vicious flame wars with each other.

      3.) By “show up,” I mean any activity that takes place in the real world, whether it is a meeting, conference, a BBQ, or a demonstration. I was just at a local CofCC meeting this weekend in St. Louis. There was none of the acrimony or vicious infighting there that I see online. Also, I don’t think geography has much to do with it. I’ve been all over the South going to events. There’s no reason why something similar couldn’t be going on in other parts of the US aside from the fact that WNs in the North and West would rather argue with each other on the internet.

      4.) Guilty.

      When I was involved in WN, I also used to partake in that culture. I said above there have been legendary “beef” discussions here in the past. My attitude and perspective changed when I got off the internet, abandoned anonymity, and began to see how things could be different.

      5.) Leadership is definitely one element of it, but I don’t think that is biggest problem. Fear and extreme individualism are the two biggest problems. Even if there was a great leader, WNs would have to come out from behind their computer screens or anything to get moving, and that would necessarily require them to get over their own fear of being outed by the opposition and suffering the social and economic consequences of their beliefs.

      6.) I never said that face to face relationships are perfect. I’m saying that virtual relationship over the internet are not the same thing. They are far more fragile than real world relationships. The “beefs” on display here are just a product of relying so heavily on the internet. I’ve shown that the “beefs” that don’t exist are just as important. There are lots of WNs who know each other in real life, like each other, and don’t feud with each other.

      7.) I’m not troubled by what the FBI knows about the League or the CofCC. We’re not doing anything illegal. We’re not doing anything violent. That’s why we don’t have any problems with law enforcement.

      8.) Finally, WNs make themselves look ridiculous when they publicly feud with each other like this, which is why I am showcasing it here. I want them to be embarrassed for they will think twice before doing it again. The opposition (i.e., Spelunker and Liberty Lamp) is here laughing at the spectacle. I can’t say that I blame them either. What the hell are these people even fighting about? Does Stormfront not agree with Bob Whitaker that anti-racists are anti-White? Why is Greg Johnson objecting to Andrew Anglin’s glorification of Hitler? As for Colin Liddell vs. Andrew Anglin, wasn’t it Liddell who wrote the “Is Black Genocide Right?” article on Alternative Right with the caption “does the vulture perhaps have a point”?

      I’m not bashing WN. The point that I am making here is that “beefs” arise from relying too much on the internet. The problem would in all likelihood disappear, or be seriously and substantially reduced, if 99 percent of the WN movement wasn’t consumed by the internet. The usual trolls, malcontents, and cranks will still be around, but most of the vicious infighting is caused by the way WNs have chosen to interact with each other.

  15. HW, Mr. Anglin DOES lay out the realities of the present conflict. Specifically, in the areas of race, culture, history, self (not other) directed altruism, and religion- specifically, Christianity.

    He also points out that the empty husks (the sodomite fringe) have NOTHING to say to those of us who are white, heterosexual, and care about ‘…us and OUR posterity’.

    Lastly, the dismissal of Hitler, National Socialism, and the agitprop against it by the Jews, for the last seventy plus years, is dealt a fatal blow in Anglin’s analysis of the problem. It’s a case of ‘you can’t fight something with nothing.’ I have come to a startling realization in reading Tedor’s “Hitler’s Revolution: Ideology, Social Revolution, Foreign Affairs” that I knew absolutely NOTHING of the moral GOOD that this man did for his people, due to Jewish demonization of the only modern nation that thwarted the Jewish Usury Fractional Reserve Banking scam, and almost won , ‘contra mundum.’

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KVUVFV2/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o01_?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    I think Anglin is substantively more correct than many of the writers out there, once you know that the ‘truth is not necessarily what you read in the papers.’ Moreover, Anglin isn’t pulling punches, looking to be an egghead among eggheads, or trying to appease the scum at the SPLC, or worrying about being called a fascist, or other ‘sticks and stones’ names, that so many others are quaking in their boots about.

    In a land where drones, metrosexual mulatto Mischlings, the destruction of the rule of law, and overt threats of full-on riots by the Untermenschen in Ferguson all pale over the lack of simple sane reponses to closing air traffic from the Ape Continent, it’s utterly bogus to complain, act holier than thou, or be proud that your pop-in-law is ‘friends’ with some Ivy League talking head that engages in Hungarian wine tasting conferences, while Rome (i.e., the West) is burning before our eyes. Anglin may be just one man, but at least he is using the bucket to quench the flames of Talmudic double-talk, appeasement with the demonic FedGov, and calling wussies those that deserve the moniker.

    • Obviously, I agree with Anglin, Heimbach, and Parrott on the importance of Christianity. Heimbach and Parrott have been writing lately on the importance of overcoming our own moral vices or the “inner struggle.” I strongly agree on that point.

  16. ‘I agree with Anglin, Heimbach, and Parrott on the importance of Christianity’:

    Good. Yet you delete any comments that even ‘touch upon it’.

    • Why is that?

      It is not because I am against Christianity. It is because you and several other commentators can’t stop fighting over theology and turn every discussion here, no matter how unrelated or off-topic it might be, into a hobby horse riding religious flame war.

  17. ‘anonymous posters who spend 100 percent of their time arguing, infighting, and sowing division with other WNs on the internet. 99 percent of the movement is online. Only a small fraction of WNs use their real names. A fraction of those are activists’:

    Why do you claim that WNs who are anonymous on the internet are not active in the ‘real world’?

    ‘More was going on in the early 1990s before the internet. They’ve used the internet to attract legions of followers (WN sites are popular), but education and outrage don’t translate into much into real life’:

    You seem to deny the immense enlightening effect of our use of the worldwide ‘web’! But our free political speech on the internet will be restricted soon enough, and THEN we’ll see if it’s true that it was ‘better off without it’.

    • 1.) Because, they are not.

      Aside from reading websites and posting comments on the internet, 99 percent of WNs can’t be moved to do anything in the real world. They don’t go to meetings. They don’t go to conferences. They don’t go to protests. They don’t join organizations. Yet all of them wonder why WN never goes anywhere. Why would the real world ever change when WNs invest all their time and energy into a virtual reality fantasy world?

      2.) I’m sure the WN movement has educated and outraged countless thousands of people over the years. The movement has actually been quite successful in doing that. What does it do beyond that though? Beyond getting people mad and getting them to value their race. That’s where the WN movement is stopped dead in its tracks. It educates and outrages all of these people, who then proceed to do … NOTHING.

  18. I realise you don’t mean ‘better off without it’, but you are downplaying the ‘pen’ of the modern age that is mightier than the sword — and can reach many more viewers than a handheld sign at a rally, though I do carry signs in rallies.

    • And then?

      After you educate people and get them mad at the world, what do they do then? Nothing, they sit at home behind their computer screens, day after day, year after year, and get more pissed off and blow off steam in internet pissing contests. A minority of them will go out with a bang like James von Brunn or Glenn Miller.

  19. ‘They don’t go to conferences. They don’t join organizations’:

    Good politics begins locally and personally and with our own kinfolk and neighbours, and with right ‘theology’. No movement or programme that comes down to us from powerful Elites or the Elitism-minded, or that belongs to a different people or culture, or that is not based firmly on the only sound doctrine will accomplish anything good for us in the long term.

  20. HW, as you answered Mosin in the last few posts, I wondered, what are you really saying when you noted: “They don’t go to meetings. They don’t go to conferences. They don’t go to protests. They don’t join organizations”?

    You are quite young, and, from your vantage point, it might ‘appear’ that we who have been here on this Earth a bit longer, are what you say we are- people who are not ‘personally involved.’ But that’s only now… if you could look into our pasts, you might be surprised to see that a number of the posters on your site, WERE ‘involved’ back as far as the Reagan era, even. (lol- which was yesterday, where I am sitting). I’ve had subscriptions to the Spotlight, American Renaissance, Citizen’s Informer, and ordered books from ‘alternative publishers’ going back to Larson’s “For Fear of the Jews.” I’ve been at conferences where I’ve met Ernst Zundel, and talked with any number of authors in this area of expertise, and when it was said and done, Zundel still got arrested, Varela still had his bookstore closed, the Conference was canceled in Budapest, and Jared Taylor had to hold his talk in a forest in Kentucky… Yet, hope springs eternal, so they say.

    But, after the fourth or fifth conference, always at locations never near to where you live (though one conference in the So Cal. area in January, relieved me of snow and cold for a week or more- Deo gratias) on your own dime, where you hear the same ‘talking heads’ saying the same things, and find non-Whites, and Jews and other enemies in these conferences trying as hard as they can to keep honest whites from talking about the REAL problems, you begin to ‘wear thin.’ You think to yourself, “Why are THOSE PEOPLE here?” Why is Jared talking, yet again, and not advocating armed insurrection (the only viable ‘final solution’ for a large number of causes and enemies) ? What damn good is this stuff doing? Why are only the leftist Commies getting to have gunshot fights, demonstrations, AIR TIME!? You get tired of the gag in your own mouth, and the handcuffs on your intellect, and……well, you get the gist of it, I hope.

    Couple that with an arrogance on the part of the young (yourself included, though you are far more temperate than most!) towards those who are your ‘Elders,’ and the emotional, fiscal, and psychic capital necessary to watch you do what we did, and yet achieved nothing doing, (yet one more time!) is too high a price to pay as we enter our retirement/dotage/curmudgeon phase. I’d rather act BEFORE the FEMA camps; before the mass orchestrated campaign by the Obama regime to cull the White population via an engineered Ebola outbreak; before monkeys go feral due to the correct verdict in Ferguson; before the Lesbian and Sodomite fringe FEDGOV Gestapo round up pastors and congregants who disagree in Houston, for their own version of the Colliseum; before all this CRAP hits the fan….

    Does that explain why I’m not interested in joining some group that is not in my area of the country, driving for three days minimum to attend a ‘rally’ standing before the SPLC building, (and NOT having mortars to bring it down?), standing in the hot sun to have some antifa untermenschen throw feces in plastic bags and NOT get arrested, for what?
    So you can feel better? At least St. Boniface chopped down an Oak tree! At least St. Olaf died on the battlefield for Christ and Kingdom. At least the South used to have balls….

    HW, attend to your family. Raise your son as you see fit. But don’t engage in exactly what everyone else is engaging in here on your website, and then pretend not see the log in your own eye.

  21. Re: Fr. John

    Since I have been in St. Louis, I have spent hours staying up late at night talking to Gordon, who is well into his curmudgeon phase, about all the fighting that it is going on, and he has been around for decades watching this stuff.

  22. Re: Fr. John

    No one expects you to drive to any of our demonstrations or conferences in the South from the Upper Midwest. Why isn’t there anything going on there? It is because WNs would rather argue with each other on the internet over small differences than organize and engage in activism in their area.

  23. Re: Fr. John

    I’m not fighting with anyone here. On the contrary, I am restraining myself from getting involved and throwing fuel on the fire.

    I could easily write an essay of my own and make my own arguments. Instead of doing that, I will just say here in the comments that the thrust of what I would say is that the infighting is caused by slacktivism, anonymity, and relying too much on the internet, that there is a positive side of the movement in the real world which most people don’t see, and that the infighting could easily be cut out or substantially reduced if the participants got to know each other in real life.

  24. “Why isn’t there anything going on there?”

    HW, from your study of ‘American Nations’ you should realize the Scandic/Germanic folk of the Upper Midwest are UTTERLY CLUELESS as to the nature of the Beast, and are also staunchly Demon-crap-ic in their politics. Even the ‘conservatives’ still believe in ‘rainbow adoptions’ and ‘helping out the poor (fill in the multicultural blank) not realizing that the Jihadis of 9/11, the warriors in Somalia, and the future Ebola-carriers of the world, merely take of our largesse, and never intend to: a)assimilate, b)get over their grudge mentality, c) let us live once they achieve critical mass.

    In short, they’re dumb as posts. Uff da, you betcha.

  25. ‘you say we are people who are not ‘personally involved. But that’s only now… if you could look into our pasts, you might be surprised to see that a number of the posters on your site, WERE ‘involved’ back as far as the Reagan era, even’:

    Fr John+ , I go back even further than the Reagan era, to ’68 — very young then! — giving a local speech for George Wallace just before the election. He received about 14% of the vote in this state overall, but more than that in this area, nearly all from the despised ‘lower class’ of ‘redneck’ and ‘blue collar’ northern White males that the Counter Currents Elitist type considers inert and incapable.

  26. Wallace’s running mate didn’t help by suggesting nuclear weapons for Indochina. If Wallace had championed withdrawal from the endless global war he could have had more votes in this area.

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