Open Thread — Adolf Hitler

Hitler in 1933One way or another, the man born on this date will never be forgotten.  Worshiped or reviled, studied and feared to this day, he created and led an ideology that the entire power structure of the Western World is dedicated to suppressing.  The current intellectual climate prevents a nuanced view — you either love him or hate him.  Many white nationalists look to him in the same way teenagers with no musical taste look to a pop star — he is the most convenient symbol of white resistance and so by default, you support him.  There’s nothing substantial there.  However, many others who have studied the Reich and its Leader, with all of its faults and shortcomings, still consider him one of the greatest leaders any nation has ever had.

There is obviously a dissenting view.  Some variants of this are as follows —

  • Hitler was not a white nationalist.  He waged unremitting war on millions of fellow whites and slaughtered them ruthlessly.
  • He was a capitalist reactionary (or a conservative).  He cynically used National Socialism to win the support of workers, then purged the true believers in order to align with the old fashioned German imperialists and big business.
  • National Socialism, while pro-white (or at least pro-German) was still tyrannical and should be opposed.
  • Hitler launched a war that more than anything else destroyed the Western world, killed millions of whites, and handed over our civilization to a parasitic elite that continues to oppress us today.

Where do you stand?  Do you consider Hitler to be your Fuhrer?  Or do you consider him to be a painful embarrassment or even responsible for our current situation?  Debate below.

And just to be fair, here is my view…

Hitler was a politician.  Being a politician means making compromises and performing the art of the possible.  This idea that he developed some creed which he then campaigned on relentlessly and convinced the German people with is false.   He didn’t just walk up to a podium and start screaming about Jews.  He built coalitions, supported some constituencies, and turned on others depending on political circumstances.  He built a movement from the ground up in one of the greatest accomplishments of modern history and in the face of incredible opposition, something we often forget today.

It is so very easy to write a book or an internet essay saying how a racial state should be governed, or what “correct” politics should consist of.  Actually practicing real world politics is a necessary skill that all too many of our laptop philosophers ignore.  In that respect, I think the Fuhrer, by combining diverse constituencies and opposing philosophies into a National Socialist state that has much to admire is an example that we should look to.  This doesn’t mean putting on swastikas and marching around — it means studying how he operated in the political environment of his time to do what he thought best for the volk.  Also, as I mentioned before on this site, it is impossible, simply impossible, to dismiss the seductive aura of the Reich that he built.

What he did wrong was his single minded focus on an old fashioned German expansionist foreign policy.  This was the primary goal of his life, even more than racial rebirth.  He showed a lack of imagination and vision in his approach to other European states.  Rather than unifying the white race, he did much to plunge us into a pointless fratricidal conflict.  He does not bear sole or even primary responsibility for this — Winston Churchill gets a large share of the blame as well, as do others.  However, to pretend that Hitler did not want war or that he was “forced” into it somehow ignores history.

Adolf Hitler failed and that failure carried a terrible cost for our people.  Nonetheless, unlike the vast majority of the rest of the world, I will not revile the man’s memory.   Indeed, I will remember him with great respect.  I hope some day we can build a world that is capable of a more nuanced view and can give him the credit for his accomplishments that he deserves as well as recognition of his failures.  So Adolf Hitler — some misgivings notwithstanding — Sieg Heil!

Last I’ll say on it.  Go to town on the comments below but please, keep it civil, no name calling, and no bad faith arguments.  Let’s debate today, but unite and get back to work for our common future tomorrow.

50 Comments

  1. If Hitler had not already showed his untrustworthiness and aggressiveness by breaking his word and conquering the non-German part of Czechoslovakia, the British might well have allowed Hitler to take back the parts of Poland that were rightfully German. If the British had not guaranteed Poland’s independence, I doubt Poland would have wanted a suicidal war against Germany over areas that never should have been Polish in the first place.

    And, yes, Germany wanted an alliance with Britain against the Soviets, but the British didn’t. Of course any country can avoid war by backing down to another country. Britain had backed down enough by letting Germany rebuild its military, annex Austria, annex the German-speaking parts of Czechoslovakia, and by not doing anything when the remainder of Czechoslovakia was invaded.

    When Hitler chose to invade Poland, the British had pledged to guarantee Poland’s independence, whether you or Hitler think they should have done so or not. Hitler knew this. All Hitler had to do to avoid war was not invade Poland. Is that so hard? It’s not like Britain was putting an embargo on Germany or doing something else that they couldn’t live with. Hitler had already accepted the principle that he wasn’t going to try to win back all of Germany’s pre-WWI land, so what’s so special about Poland that he absolutely had to have it, and not invading was not an option? At what point does Hitler take a little bit of responsibility for the war?

    >>‘especially granting access through the Corridor for Germans traveling to and from East Prussia.’

    Sure, that’s all Hitler wanted. Before he invaded Czechoslovakia, he said that all he wanted was the Sudetanland. Why would anybody believe him after he had just lied through his teeth and conquered another country?

    Like I said, maybe if he had kept his word to Czechoslovakia, reasonable demands would have been met.

  2. It is interesting that many people get so worked up over the role of Hitler and Third Reich Germany in supposedly being fully responsible for starting the war, and the subsequent treatment of Polish citizens under their military jurisdiction — yet tend to overlook that it was a joint German-Soviet operation — and, the far more brutal and vicious treatment the Poles recieved at the hands of their Soviet invaders mid-September, 1939.

  3. If Serbia invaded Kosovo tomorrow, or Ethiopia invaded Eritrea, would that justify American military intervention? I don’t think so. Neither of these potential conflicts would be any of our business. The same principle applies to Germany and its neighbors.

  4. For me, Mr. Irving is not a very good source. Granted, he has had access to a lot of diaries and other documents. My problem is that I’m not sure which “Hitler’s War” to use a source.

    The original one (that I own) in which he acknowledges the holocaust, but claims that Hitler didn’t know? The later editions, where he claims that the holocaust didn’t take place at all? Add to this the current Irving who now (after being prosecuted by the Thought Police) claims that he believes again?

    Also, to read a book by a man who thinks that there are ensigns in the army, that OKH was the War Ministry and claims that “Fall Gelb” was Hitler’s idea and that Manstein (one of the greatest generals of the Wehrmacht and of the war) only sorta, kinda helped with it, gives me a headache.

  5. Who overlooks that? Robert Lindsay? In general, almost everyone alive today, from David Duke to Noam Chomsky, agrees that Stalin was a bad guy. If they don’t agree about anything else, they agree about that. Nothing is less controversial.

  6. I strongly believe that European ethnic and national quarrels should be of no concern to Americans. Nothing good has ever come out of touching that tar baby. Our time is best spent focusing on the problems Whites face in North America and finding solutions to them.

  7. Who overlooks that? Robert Lindsay?

    LOL (and Roberto does indeed overlook it).

    Seriously though, its not about Stalin merely being a ‘bad guy’ — it is important to officially recognize that he was co-responsible for the initiation of that horrible war.

    As well as the unprovoked, genocidal invasion of the Baltic states and the ‘Winter War’ against Finland — where he and his Asiatic hordes got their Red asses handed to them on a platter.

  8. >If Serbia invaded Kosovo tomorrow, or Ethiopia invaded Eritrea, would that justify American military intervention? I don’t think so. Neither of these potential conflicts would be any of our business.

    Britain had just been in a very nasty war with Germany, and they were about evenly matched. Anything that made Germany relatively more powerful made Britain relatively less powerful, which made it relevant to Britain. Britain wasn’t just being a busybody like today’s US.

    As a Southerner who takes an interest in how the South was pushed around by the North, you should know as well as anybody that it matters if the other guy has power. Would it not have been a good thing for the South if they could have prevented the entry of some of the Northern states into the union?

  9. This deep in a thread so full of stuff-and-nonsense (Greg Johnson and a few other posters excepted) I don’t where to start. I’ll restrict myself to a couple of points.

    1. The War with Poland and onset of the European War. Hitler had good and sufficient reason to attack the Poles, reasons involving both the Polish refusal to discuss the status of territory stolen at Versailles, and an ongoing and accelerating massacre of the ethnic German population: some 50,000 killed by Polish death squads during August-September, 1939. Nor had Hitler any awareness that his “aggression” against Poland would provoke a general European conflict. The “security gaurantee” given by London to the Poles was not known to the Germans; 1914 all over again, when the Kaiser and his advisors had no knowledge of Britain’s secret military committments to France. When he received news of Britain’s declaration of war on Germany, Hitler turned to v. Ribbentrop and said, “Now what?!” Not exactly a Man with a Plan…..

    2. War in the Balkans, Mediterranean, and N. Africa. Mussolini, a loose cannon, attacked Albania and Greece without so much as informing Hitler of his intentions. Then Churchill, sensing an opportunity to foment more death and destruction, overthrew the Greek government, substituted a puppet regime, and sent in Empire troops that the Greeks neither wanted nor needed. Next, Churchill and Stalin overthrew the coalition government in Yugoslavia and substituted a cabal of Serb generals. Meanwhile, Musso attacks Egypt and gets thrashed. Only after all this did Hitler strike southward.

    3. The War with the Red Empire. The key factoid is in Halder’s diary. As early as April, 1941, Hitler decreed: “No Moscow”. Halder’s astonishment is palpable, reaching across the years. In short, Hitler’s initial goals were limited to the Empire itself: Baltic states, White Russia, Ukraine. This is why, when Army Group Center broke through at Smolensk in early August, he issued the fatal “Halt Order” and, with nothing between the Germans and Moscow but the battered remnants of a dozen soviet rifle divisions, sent most of its armored strength south into the Ukraine. Almost 6 weeks later, with Russian resistence stiffening all along the line, Hitler realized that, to hold his new empire, he would have to take down the Stalin regime itself, and began the drive on Moscow. By December 3rd, in sub-zero blizzard conditions, unwinterized German troops fought their way into the suburbs, within sight of the Kremlin. Only to be thrown back by a Russian counter-attack which began the next day, a counter-attack largely carried out by soldiers who, 2 months earlier, were still on the wrong side of the Ural mountains. Stalin’s aggressive intentions aside, and I think Suvorov has this about right, Hitler’s attack on the Red Empire was no “mistake”: absent the Halt Order, and the Germans win the European War on the Eastern Front. Hitler simply blew it, mostly because of his (initial) contempt for his slavic foes. Not much to admire here, other than the obvious: the fighting ability of the German soldier. Years later, when DeGaulle was in Moscow for a WW II commemoration of some sort, his Russian hosts showed him the wreckage of a German tank at the farthest point of the advance. “A remarkable people”, said DeGaulle. “Oh, you mean the Russians!”, said someone. “No”, said DG, “I mean the Germans”.

    4. Nazi occupation policies in Poland and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Jews aside, barbaric and stupid and self-defeating, and well-documented as such. Hitler didn’t care a fig about the “Nordic Race”, only Germanic empire-building. Again, nothing to admire here, and much to detest.

    5. Evaluating Hitler the Man. A magnificent peacetime politician, and one of the greatest illustrations in all human history of the power of the individual Will, and the Will-to-Power. As such, he inspires us all. But as a military leader, very bad stuff. Far from attempting to “conquer the world”, he was an anglophilic piker….with remarkably limited goals. At least three times – on the Eastern Front, on the Western (Dunkirk, and another premature “halt” order), and in N. Africa (Rommel kept on a short leash throughout) – Hitler seized defeat from the jaws of victory. Again, not much to admire here except the remarkable fighting capacity of the (white) Germans….and the (white) slavs, Brits, Brit Empire, and American forces who ultimately defeated them. It really was all a monstrous fratricide. But for that we should attach rather more of the responsibility to Churchill and his Zionist handlers than to Hitler himself.

  10. Coldequation: “. . . it was Hitler’s decision to invade Poland that made it remotely possible for the Stalin to attack Germany.” The evidence indicates that Stalin planned a massive military assault on all of Europe, not just countries that shared a border with the USSR, although they would have fallen first.

  11. Trainspotter: You and I are not that far apart. I do think that in our present pre-revolutionary situation, White Nationalists need to unplug from the system, network, work locally, form resilient communities, etc.

    But we must do this while cultivating a strong racial collectivism, a healthy ethnocentrism rather than the radical individualism of the survivalist crowd.

    Moreover, when the present regime implodes and whites are able to seize some of this country back, we are also going to experience the necessity of leadership, centralization, mass-mobilization, and the like. That is not National Socialist orthodoxy speaking. That is simply a sober assessment of political reality in light of the whole history of political philosophy and practice. Adolf Hitler did not invent the idea of dictatorship, after all. Many things associated with National Socialism are merely parts of a long European political tradition, a tradition that we will find relevant in creating our own White Republic some day.

    I also think we agree on the following:

    (1) The Second World War was a tragedy for the white race as a whole, and a particular tragedy for the peoples in whose lands it was fought.

    (2) It takes a world to make a world war, so the idea that Adolf Hitler bears sole or even major responsibility for that war is preposterous on the face of it and does not stand up to the most cursory historical investigation.

    (3) The idea that Adolf Hitler is the sole reason why white nationalism has a bad press is superficial and naive, or just childish posturing.

    (4) That said, costume Nazi groups, uncritical Hitler-worship, debating the minutiae of the Second World War, etc. are easily parodied by the enemy and usually do not help our cause — except by helping other radical White Nationalists who reject National Socialist branding seem like moderates by comparison.

    (5) We need to create a White Nationalist synthesis of ideas and initiatives adapted to present-day America.

  12. @Greg,
    “The argument advanced by some racial nationalists that any defense of Adolf Hitler…risks alienating mainstream Whites…is still on balance mistaken…It is an undeniable fact that in our contemporary political climate any white nationalism…will be labeled Hitlerian…We are thus obliged, like it or not, to live under Hitler’s shadow.”

    This line of reasoning is not logical. If White Nationalists will be labelled by opponents as Satanic, does that mean we need to find a way to defend and apologize for Satan and live under Satan’s shadow? Defending Hitler, Gengis Khan or Ivan the Terrible, or having anything whatsoever to do with those historical figures, is completely unecessary. It is true that in the debate, WNs will be labelled with any handy disparaging epithet and compared to any negative stereotype that has the potential to smear. But in a debate, the best tactic is to completely reject those labels and comparisons.

    American White Nationalism should have its roots in the writings and designs of the founding fathers. Benjamin Franklin wanted “lovely White” people to population the nation, not the “tawny” ones. Jefferson wrote quite a bit about race realism, he and Madison wrote about the impossibility of Blacks living in the same government as Whites. Lincoln was a WN as well, and his successor Andrew Johnson talked about America as a “White Man’s Nation” as did most major public figures of the time. Truman’s quote from his diary about America being meant for the White Man is also useful. We have a vast arsenal of immigration law, government policy and writing by the greatest Americans in history that all defines, supports and defends the WN position. Hitler has absolutely nothing to do with American White Nationalism, and I would argue he should be rejected completely as a foreign leader of an enemy nation in an old war fought by our grandfathers.

  13. Andrew, what will you say when someone replies to your all-American version of White Nationalism: “But if Jefferson, Franklin, and the rest were racists, then they were just like Hitler!”? Evading the issue will not help.

  14. @Whites Unite
    “I am not at all attracted to the idea of racially partitioning the United States. I’d hate to see my fellow White Americans wade through Harold Covington’s rivers of blood”

    I think its useful to have a long-term view of the solution to our mess. And the only real long-term solution will be the creation of an ethnostate. There really will have to be a partition, but this probably wont happen for the next 40 years, until Whites are forced to separate due to the misery caused by multiculturalism and socialism. However, I do not foresee “rivers of blood”. This can be done through referendum and a political settlement.

    “By restricting immigration and encouraging a higher birthrate among Whites, we could remain a majority.”

    It is believed that this year will mark the first year when White births are a minority. Already Whites are a minority in the 6-and-under population. Even if immigration was halted today, the writing is on the wall that America will eventually be a majority non-White nation. I dont say this to be depressing, and all is not lost certainly, but realistically this is what we are looking at in the somewhat distant future.

    I do generally agree with your other comments though, although I think the best path to influencing the Republican party is to have a large WN political party (such as the A3P or even better, an enlightened Tea Party movement). Even a political party with 3% of the White vote could be very effective, because the Republicans would desperately need that to have any chance of maintaining a majority in either the House or Senate.

  15. @Greg,
    “Andrew, what will you say when someone replies to your all-American version of White Nationalism: “But if Jefferson, Franklin, and the rest were racists, then they were just like Hitler!”? Evading the issue will not help.”

    If the opposition claims that the founders were racists, they grant WNs a significant victory. If Jefferson is a racist, the opposition grants that the Constitution and founding document of the U.S. (written largely by Jefferson) is a White Nationalist document for a WN nation. Most White Americans, or at least a very large number, regard the founders as intellectual and moral giants. If they are “racists” and thus associated with the WN movement, it greatly legitimizes us. It would be pretty hard to convince Whites that Benjamin Franklin, the kindhearted inventor and postman, and the other founders are “Hitlerites”, or evil.

    While on this topic, Greg, a massive opportunity that lies before the WN movement right now is the Tea Party movement, which is almost all White, politically active, patriotic and angry, under continual verbal attack as “racists”. Matt Parrott, myself and others have created a “Guide to White Nationalism for Dummies” book, which is designed to introduce normal people to the movement, which is easy-to-read and engaging without being offensive or scary. We have gotten some great feedback, approval by Richard Hoste, and the book was mentioned on the Political Cesspool. The title is “America Besieged!” Would you please look this over and provide your feedback, with comments about possible improvements? The book can be accessed at:
    http://hoosiernation.us/america_besieged

    Thanks!

  16. I am not at all attracted to the idea of racially partitioning the United States. I’d hate to see my fellow White Americans wade through Harold Covington’s rivers of blood

    I neither want nor foresee rivers of blood. My hope is for a partition of the United States done as peacefully and with as little hostility as possible.

    The strategy and policies you advocate, attempting to maintain a tenuous position in a multiracial America, would not change the trend toward the destruction of our race. It might change the rate at which it happens, but extinction would still be inevitable. Racial survival requires separation. To oppose racial separation is to effectively support racial destruction.

  17. Greg Johnson,

    Repeating the drivel of Jewish “historians” of Yeltsin era does not give much credit to your reputation, does it. You are a Dr. and supposed to have your own thoughts and opinions – that’s what Dr. usually do, and not parroting other’s nonsense. Do you have any?

    Keep them out of banking, out of education, out of government. Get the Jews out of banking and they cannot control the economic life of the community. Get the Jews out of education and they can not pervert the minds of the young to their subversive doctrines. Get the Jews out of government and they cannot betray the nation. – Matt Parrott

    Good thinking! BTW, these suggestions are very much in line with the program of so-called “Black Hundred” – a body of Russian intelligentsia (the famous chemist Mendeleev was one of them) which was dissolved after the Bolshevik revolution, and almost all members of which either emigrated, were killed, or ended up in Gulag.

    The Russian word “Black” in “Black Hundred” in this context has the meaning of ‘grassroots’ and not ‘reactionary’, as many Jewish “historians” have tried to discredit and defame that organization.

  18. Compassionate Fascist said
    ” Nor had Hitler any awareness that his “aggression” against Poland would provoke a general European conflict. The “security gaurantee” given by London to the Poles was not known to the Germans;”

    Maybe Hitler should have read the newspaper.
    Here’a a newspaper article from 1939 quoting Prime Minister Chamberlain saying that Britain would go to war over Poland. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=q_IKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yU8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6217,3980426&dq=poland+chamberlain&hl=en
    The British also told the Germans after the invasion that war would be averted if Germany would withdraw its troops.

    Hitler convinced himself that Britain didn’t mean it, hence the surprise when they did declare war on him, but that’s his own foolishness.

    “absent the Halt Order, and the Germans win the European War on the Eastern Front.”

    Questionable. If he hadn’t issued the halt order, the German army would have had even longer supply lines in the winter with the big army that they captured at Kiev behind that. That could well have led to disaster. And capturing Moscow would not have meant victory. Napoleon captured Moscow – how’d that work out for him?

    The German officers tended to blame Hitler for everything that went wrong.

  19. Whatever the merits or demerits of the Nazi regime this much is clear: it wasn’t any variation of the “respectable right” that put up any meaningful resistance to Leninis-Stalinist designs on Western Civilization. Far from it. Parliamentarism, Capitalism and various Christian ecclesiastical outfits were almost invariably on the Leninist-Stalinist side.

    This is the crux of the whole matter. Those who today monopolize “right-wing” opposition to Judeo supremacism derive from political traditions that offered no true resistance to this abomination in the past and continue the same passive tradition today. Their anti-fascism is part and parcel of their inefficacy. That’s the point.

    Whatever failures the Nazi/Fascists are responsible for, without their enormous efforts we today would be utterly doomed. We should celebrate them for that.

    “Perhaps you refuse to refute these “ludicrous” assertions because you are unable to do so.

    As for not being germane to this thread, I don’t know what the founding of Rome had to do with this thread in the first place.”

    I knew you would take that cheap-shot Mr. Miggles. I either allow you to derail this thread or appear to acquiesce in one form or other to your ignorant provocations.

    I will attempt to do neither.

    My bringing up the founding of Rome was an aside. A brief statement of trivia some may find interesting. Unlike your extensive full-on quotation of two ignorami, which, far from being an aside was the main theme of your post.

    See the distinction there, Mr. Miggles? Wrap your Big Nordic Mind around it. Do try and keep up.

    Now tell us Mr. Miggles. Is Latin a member of the Germanic family of languages or isn’t it? The world wants to know.

  20. Andrew,

    You have made a lot of good points. In particular, I liked this one about the Tea Party movement. We should be writing content for this audience. It is safe to say that 99% of the audience we need to reach – the implicit Whites flirting with explicit Whiteness – have no interest in Adolf Hitler and National Socialism.

  21. “Christianity did not die with Jesus Christ and National Socialism will not die with Adolf Hitler!” — Otto Remer, speech whilst as a member of the Socialist Reich Party.

  22. To the person who referred to me as a “he”, I’m a female.

    As for why a Jewish WN would want to be here, this is a blog that anyone can post to.

    Believe it or not there are other Jews who regard themselves as WNs. We associate primarily with each other, and we have our own organizations. You might be familiar with a well-known WN named Michael Levin. He authored the book, “Why Race Matters”, published by American Renaissance. He is not by any means the only one of us.

    I frankly don’t care if non-Jewish WNs don’t regard us as White. That doesn’t change the fact that my ancestors on both sides of my family lived in Europe for over 2,000 years (my mother’s family is not even Jewish at all, although she is by conversion).

    What non-Jewish WNs think also does not change the fact that if I as a White woman walk down a dark street at night and am accosted by criminally-minded negroes, they will not see me as a non-White but as being just as White as you.

  23. Greg, you’ve tested the waters here with a very hot topic. I’ve refrained from entering this thread until now, to see what some of the comments would be. No White person, and especially a WN, can escape the shadow of Hitler, and that should be obvious to any sentient person. This is an issue that will not go away, and will eventually have to be dealt with by Whites, win, lose or draw. Everybody seems to have an opinion of the man, but WN’s have a tendency to look at him more positively, or at least objectively than most. In this vein, I think that the article by Irmin that you quoted in post #67 is basically balanced and explains the ‘Hitler ghost’ dilemma about as well as anybody can. The destruction of nationalist Europe in 1945 was a severe blow to White ethnic interests, and a watershed event of disastrous proportions. We are all still stunned by the fratricide, and are trying to dig out of the moral and intellectual rubble. We wish it hadn’t happened, but it did.

    We can’t do anything but try, as Andrew, Trainspotter, Matt & Hunter suggest, to work around the demonization/defamation of the Third Reich as best we can and move on. Stormfront has a sub-forum on the Second World War that discusses these issues, and that’s where passions of the subject are regularly vented.

  24. To the Jewess, I don’t care if Jews consider themselves White. If you feel scared walking down the street at night – blame your Jewish community for being the spearhead of non-white immigration.

    If Jews want to be on the White side, they should go hang out at the ADL blogs and the neo-con blogs and the other Jewish blogs and start trying to change *your own* tribe.

    We don’t need Jews telling us they must be included in our white movement. You have your own tribe, they are constantly attacking us, so why don’t pro-White Jews go into their own communities and start some Tikkun Olam on your own people.

    Didn’t some Jew once say take the beam out of your own eye before checking for specks in others?

  25. To JWN and VVV,

    Let’s at least be respectful of each-other’s feelings.

    In other words, Europeans and (Ashkenazi) Jews, although White, can still have divergent interests. It also means that White and/or Jewish Nationalists does not want to ‘genocide’, or necessarily wish harm to the other.

    Tis all.

  26. VVD said:
    [i]To the Jewess, I don’t care if Jews consider themselves White. If you feel scared walking down the street at night – blame your Jewish community for being the spearhead of non-white immigration.[/i]

    What makes you think I don’t blame them? If you knew how much I despise, loathe and hate the leftist jews for what they have done to destroy my country and the White European peoples, you would be terrified. Seriously. You just have no idea.

    [i]If Jews want to be on the White side, they should go hang out at the ADL blogs and the neo-con blogs and the other Jewish blogs and start trying to change *your own* tribe.[/i]

    Again, what makes you assume I don’t? I have been doing just that for the past 30 years. The problem is that there are so few Jews like me, and so many jews like them.

    [i]We don’t need Jews telling us they must be included in our white movement. You have your own tribe, they are constantly attacking us, so why don’t pro-White Jews go into their own communities and start some Tikkun Olam on your own people.[/i]

    I would not want to belong to a group that hates me simply because of my birth origins, and knows nothing about me. This is why Jewish WNs have our own groups.

    But fortunately, not all WNs are like you. I have met many who have told me that if more Jews were like me there would be no Jew-hatred. I tend to doubt that, however. There are some who hate Jews no matter what they believe, simply because they breathe.

    [i]Didn’t some Jew once say take the beam out of your own eye before checking for specks in others?[/i]

    Yes, Jesus of Nazareth did say that. And yes, I have taken the beam out of my eye. Now take the one in your eye out of yours.
    I realize that 99% of Jews are obnoxious pieces of crap, and you’ve probably never met the other 1% until now, so for that I can excuse your reaction.

  27. KNL, point taken, but still … this is a thread idolizing *Adolph Hitler* and people on this site are calling Hitler’s birthday “a holy day” and *I’m* going to hurt Jewish feelings?

    So my apologies for some of my more hostile comments, but I have to wonder why talking about Hitler and the Nazis and even holocaust revisionism is ok even though that’s the fringe of the fringe – maybe appealing to 1% of the population.

    Yet “911 Revisionism” which is currently supported by 30% or more of Americans and suggesting – as a large number of former US military intels, heads of state, Japanese Parliamentarians, and even some Jewish people – was done by Mossad – is somehow ignored.

    WWII ended before most of us were born, and we are still right at this minute involved in two wars for Israel and Zionists are firmly in control of the government.

    What’s more relevant to White people at this point in time – Hitler or AIPAC?

  28. I have met many who have told me that if more Jews were like me there would be no Jew-hatred.

    Perhaps that’s true.

    I tend to doubt that, however. There are some who hate Jews no matter what they believe, simply because they breathe.

    What does MacDonald call this? The lachrymose version of Jewish history? “Oh, they hate us just because we’re Jews.” Anti-semitism has nothing to do with Jewish behavior, it’s just the mean Jew haters that don’t like Jews for no reason at all.

    For the record, 90% of regular Jewish people that I’ve met have been pretty nice people (and 10% jerks) and my Jewish dentist does great work. It doesn’t mean I accept a hostile, murderous, thieving, disloyal foreign elite running my country – nor their apologists.

    We both may be caucasian but that’s where it ends. You don’t consider me a Jew and I don’t consider you a White (for lack of a better term).

    If the US went to war with Israel, I have no doubt that the majority of Jews would take the other side.

  29. Andrew writes:

    If the opposition claims that the founders were racists, they grant WNs a significant victory. If Jefferson is a racist, the opposition grants that the Constitution and founding document of the U.S. (written largely by Jefferson) is a White Nationalist document for a WN nation. Most White Americans, or at least a very large number, regard the founders as intellectual and moral giants. If they are “racists” and thus associated with the WN movement, it greatly legitimizes us. It would be pretty hard to convince Whites that Benjamin Franklin, the kindhearted inventor and postman, and the other founders are “Hitlerites”, or evil.

    Andrew, I don’t think that you are right about this. As long as the establishment has the power to demonize the founders as racists, and demonize racists as “like Hitler,” then people will stop thinking of the founders as intellectual and moral giants and start thinking of them as monsters. Indeed, that process has been underway for a long time, chipping away at their reputations.

    Jared Taylor made the point in his essay in Race and the American Prospect that the creation of an anti-racist, multiculturalist America means the repudiation of the Founders, the constitution, and most of American history, and he is right.

    But as long as people are so cowed by charges of “racism” and “Nazism” that they are giving away the future of their country, their race, their progeny, what makes you think that they are going to rally to save their past from obliteration as well?

    “Racism” and “Nazism” are only verbal sticks to beat us with. If those sticks don’t work, they will just be replaced. The deep underlying problem is the squishiness at the core of Americans and whites in general that make us feel like we need to apologize for ourselves, our ancestors, etc.–apologize to our inferiors and enemies, I might add–and to no avail, because these people will never like us anyway.

    “I’m not racist, but . . .”

    You don’t need to complete the sentence, because everything you say is negated by communicating the need to apologize according to a moral code created by our enemies to destroy us. You are playing against the house, and you are going to lose in the long run, because they get to make the rules.

    “I’m not a Nazi, but . . .” Same problem.

    The cure is not merely to rehabilitate racism or Hitler (although those things would help some). The cure is to rehabilitate the white character, to get back to the sheer will to live, the self-assertiveness that characterizes every healthy animal.

  30. VVD: If America went to war with the zionist entity, I would side with America, and only with America. My father and mother used to hold the same view when they were alive. I have never set foot in the Holy Land, and do not see it as my “country”.

    America was the country that gave my ancestors on both sides a chance to have a new life, and my family has never forgotten that. This is one reason why when I was going to school in the 1970s, and some of my class refused to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance (I stood, don’t worry), my father told me, “If I ever get a report from your school that you took part in that refusal to stand, I will throw you out of this house with nothing but the clothes on your back”.

    My father meant that, he was a real tough-ass. And yes, he was a Jew. But he was a guy who fought in WW2, saw combat, and never made any secret of where his loyalties were.

    I forgot to address something else you said earlier: you expressed skepticism that I resent Hitler more for making it an unforgiveable sin to be proud of being White, than for what he did to the Jews.

    Don’t get me wrong; I resent him for BOTH, but MORE so for the terrible legacy he has left the White race. His genocidal actions are the number one reason why people like you cannot openly admit to being racially aware. He ruined it for all of us, and his distorting the science of eugenics to the point of killing people who were “feeble-minded” forever tarnished a science that had a lot of good in it.

  31. There’s nothing wrong with occasionally having an academic discussion about Hitler and WWII although I agree that most of our time should be centered around current events. Sometimes fellow WN’s heap more criticism on other WN’s who broach this subject than they do liberals and Jews who endlessly prattle on about the evils of Hitler; the same leftists who are silent on the crimes of Lenin and Stalin because most harbor a secret admiration of them and the communist system.

    It just a matter of setting the record straight and no different than some Southerners who endlessly re-fight and debate the civil war.

  32. I think its fine for WNs who want to, to idolize Hitler privately. I have a skinhead friend who collects everything he can get his hands on from the WW2 era….Nazi daggers, badges, armbands, etc. Its part of his Germanic heritage (he says).

    But to go PUBLIC with it does nothing for the WN cause, and turns a hell of a lot of people off to it. It doesn’t matter how good you think Hitler was (and actually, even I believe he had some good ideas and insight about various things)….his name is irreparably tarnished as is anything connected with him.
    The quickest way to shoot the WN movement in the foot is to OPENLY praise and venerate Hitler.

    Mussolini would be a much better idol; people don’t seem to have anywhere near as much venom associated with him. Some of my mom’s cousins were Blackshirts under Mussolini, and when I went to visit my relatives in Italy (her mother, my grandmother, was from Predappio, his hometown), I saw a lot of Mussolini adoration going on (they even have his face on wine bottles!)

  33. I think the subject of Hitler is best avoided, but since it has been broached here’s my two cents. Hitler did not use symbols in his rise to power that 99.9% of the German public had been conditioned to revile. The Nazi movement was something new and novel to most Germans, clowns who go around doing “The Blues Brothers Nazi” thing just don’t get this. The equivalent would have been if the inter-war National Socialists had gone around with a Robespierre fetish dressing up as 18th century French Revolutionaries. Nobody would have took them seriously. Furthermore, in a hypothetical situation like “The Boys of Brazil” if a Hitler clone existed today with his same political savvy he no doubt would steer far clear of a lot of the clowns involved with white nationalism.

  34. Jewish White Nationalist:”I have never set foot in the Holy Land, and do not see it as my “country”.”

    That is because, as a Jew, you don’t have a country — you are a wandering homeless parasite, as all Jews are. You and your Tribe are rootless cosmopolitan scum.

    “‘You [Jews] have surpassed all nations in impertinent fables, in bad conduct and in barbarism. You deserve to be punished, for this is your destiny.” — “‘I would not be in the least bit surprised if [the Jews] would not some day become deadly to the human race.” – Voltaire

    “The Jew is the enemy of the human race. This race must be sent back to Asia, or exterminated. H. Heine, A. Weil, and others are simply secret spies. Rothschild, Crémieux, Marx, Fould, evil choleric, envious, bitter men etc., etc., who hate us.” – Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

  35. Now see, INFO, you have just proven what I said earlier: there are some who hate people of Jewish heritage simply because they want to hate.

    I have given you no reason at all to hate me on this blog. In fact I have shown that I share almost all the views of those here. Yet a few still choose hatred. That is what I call irrationality.

    I don’t care for negroes. Almost all I have met in my life were moronic, thieving, raping, criminal losers. But once I did meet a negro who was a decent, law-abiding, educated citizen, and a patriotic American. That made me see that no, they are not “all” that way. But that still doesn’t mean I want his son marrying my daughter, because I believe in racial separation.

    As for your comment that I am stateless and a parasite, I was born in America. My ancestors on both sides came here in the 1800s to begin a new life, free from the poverty of Italy and Poland. On my husband’s side, his ancestors came here to fight in the Revolutionary War. He is a member of the Sons of the American Revolution.
    So no, you’re wrong. I have a “state”, and it is called the United States of America. The land my father, grandfather and husband fought for the freedom of.

  36. …and maybe by “taking it out of his pants” he could have won the war had the Russian winter been a little less cold or had America not entered the war.

    Or,

    http://www.usamhi.army.mil/USAWC/Parameters/99spring/hooker.htm

    I’m the kind of guy who thrives on facing reality. But my mind recoils at the monstrous possibility of that essay. My God, but for one mistake?

    The point is that he tried and came /damn/ close to leading Western man out of the yolk of Jewish slavery.

    Hindsight is 20/20. Whether the war was winnable or not, it was lost. And that known, this armchair quarterback is wishing Germany had gone NSDAP without going to war.

    What has the track record been of the subtle White Nationalist movements or Western representative governments since the war?

    What’s been the track record of unsubtle WN movements since the war?

  37. @Greg
    “Andrew, I don’t think that you are right about this. As long as the establishment has the power to demonize the founders as racists, and demonize racists as “like Hitler,” then people will stop thinking of the founders as intellectual and moral giants and start thinking of them as monsters. Indeed, that process has been underway for a long time, chipping away at their reputations.”

    You make a valid and insightful point that we cannot simply run away from certain figures because they are considered “racists”. It is also very true that the Left is busily critiquing the founders, and will attempt to make all pro-White symbols, historical figures and spokesmen radioactive through criticism and labelling them as “racists”, etc. However, there is a very important distinction here. Hitler’s legacy is indefensible for a White Nationalist. The Germans did liquidate millions, such as the Slav prisoners of war. Whatever the truth of the Holocaust, many Jews did die, and everyone has seen countless depictions of the horrible piles of bodies being bulldozed into pits. This is ground that we cannot defend, and no amount of pro-White media could rehabilitate Hitler. Even if Hitler was in fact a true hero, another Charles Martel, responsible for saving Western Civilization, he is irretrievably radioactive, his image is toxic death when attempting to persuade someone.

    On the other hand, the founders were a “raging festival of awesome” if I may borrow a quote. They are the high ground, a thoroughly defensible fortress of ideas and imagery. In America Besieged! we talk about bulletproof George, surviving horses shot from beneath him, his hat shot off and bulletholes in his coat. Attacking him as a racist plays into our WN hands. His image is everywhere, sternly looking at us from the dollar bill, his name blazoned on streets and schools. Its one thing to demonize Hitler, but quite another to brand the founders as evil. There is no horrible footage, but rather a vast literature about liberty and morality, as well as paintings and other imagery showing them in heroic poses. They are in some ways like our Greek gods, mythical beings we rightly revere. When the Left attacks them as racists, they offend the very people we want to persuade, patriotic traditional Americans. In spite of the Left’s influence, the ability to demonize the founders is substantially limited.

    ““Racism” and “Nazism” are only verbal sticks to beat us with. If those sticks don’t work, they will just be replaced. The deep underlying problem is the squishiness at the core of Americans and whites in general that make us feel like we need to apologize for ourselves, our ancestors, etc.”

    I agree that words such as “Nazi” and “Racist” are simply tools of intimidation, and it is imperative that we develop an immunity to such (this is discussed in America Besieged!, I hope I am making you curious enough to read it). The correct method to deal with smears is to reject them, not defend them. It helps us immensely to be standing on the shoulders of giants such as the founders, where we are in a very strong ideological position that is very attractive to other Whites. That said, you make a strong point that we must hold our ground with the founders, we cannot retreat from them when they are assaulted as slaveowners, racists and Indian-annihilators. The difference is that the founders, who are now legends, can be defended (as opposed to Adolf, who has become the personification of evil incarnate). The fact of the matter is that Adolf really has nothing to do with America or the WN movement here, there is no convincing connection that can be made between men like Franklin and Hitler that is persuasive for traditional Whites.

    “The cure is not merely to rehabilitate racism or Hitler (although those things would help some). The cure is to rehabilitate the white character, to get back to the sheer will to live, the self-assertiveness that characterizes every healthy animal.”

    A big part of winning the debate is to point out that every ethnic group has ethnic interests, and that it is absolutely moral and right to protect and assert those interests. I do not think we can rehabilitate racism or Hitler, or that it would be productive to even try. Instead, we reframe the debate, pointing out that its all about ethnocentrism, ethnic interests and ethnic conflict, which is completely normal and universal, with deep roots in our human brains and behavior patterns. Ethnic conflict is inevitable, and ethnic separation is the only reasonable solution (of course this is all discussed in America Besieged!).

  38. Daybreaker:
    Everything that Jackson said I say too, and also everything that Andrew said in support of Jackson, except that I look first to the example of Australia’s founders, and only after that to the good examples of America.

    Adolph Hitler took the side of the Japanese in their racial war to “beat the White man in Asia” and Oceania. He was a race traitor, a monster, a loser, and the ruin of the White race and of a world that was good for White civilization.

    How does an alliance with a non-white power make one a race-traitor? And how is being aligned with a non-white power more racially traitorous than being ruled by one, as the west is now? I have a hard time accepting your kind of POV as anything but a Slavic flavor of what you criticize.

    Trainspotter:

    The ingredients just don’t come together in a way that I find particulary tenable. The Fuhrer Principle and cult of personality? I hold more to a vision of the independent freeholder. Instead of the the statue of the great leader, I’m more drawn to the statue of a simple white man, holding his musket in quiet defiance, wife and children by his side. The bureacracy and centralized control of National Socialism? Not my bag, man. I lean more to decentralization on the Swiss model than anything else.

    Hear hear!

    Whites Unite:

    Why do 99.99% of Whites in the post-war era reject explicit White Nationalism? Because they in no way want to be associated with the mass-murder carried out by the Nazis. As long as you persist in Hitler admiring, you will be rejected by the vast majority of your own people – not because of “Jewish propaganda”, but because the vast majority of our people embrace universalistic concepts of right and wrong, as they have since the days of the Stoics and especially since the advent of Christianity.

    That’s horseshit. Most whites, like most people, are sheep. The bleat how they’re told. Nowadays that means how their media-government-academic complex tell them to. It has NOTHING to do with a considered, thoughtful opinion on ANYTHING for the sheep.

    Your construction of the situation is tendentious. Ethnopatriotism is no more necessarily joined at the hip than indoor plumbing (both favorites of der Fuhrer).

    I totally agree that we should keep Hitler and the NSDAP out of this, but I won’t delude myself that your characterizations are sound.

    Greg Johnson:

    Do you really think that if we changed just one little thing — if Hitler had decided to stay a painter, for instance — that White Nationalism would be enjoying a good press today?

    Once whites allowed a Jewish take-over of the press, academia, etc., our days were numbered, no matter who became Chancellor of Germany in 1933.

    True, but that isn’t an excuse to swing too far the other way. Let’s face it, the Third Reich makes a better patsy than the Jews would have otherwise. But that isn’t the same thing as saying Hitler is a large part of the problem.

    Daybreaker:

    German National Socialism spilt the White race, in a fundamental way that would have been lasting had Naziism not been crushed. With Hitler persistently supporting the harsher courses, I see that getting worse indefinitely, as relations between the Jews and the Palestinians get worse and worse indefinitely.

    The white race has never been, and never will be unified. Your brand of radical, hegemonic, pan-WNism is a loser. White ethnicities are real, and the true building-block for the future.

    ….and, I might add, his genocide against Jews and others has forever smeared the very concepts of eugenics and racial consciousness.

    Nah, non-Gentiles did that.

    Because Hitler abused the concept, taking it to a fatal conclusion, has tarnished it forever, making further scientific studies along eugenicist lines impossible.

    Non-gentiles have been practicing their own form of eugenics for eons. If the wonderfullness of non-Gentiles hasn’t rubbed off on eugenics, why would the horribleness of the Nazis rub off on eugenics? Hmmmm, I wonder?

    Yes Andrew’s right:
    I think the bottom line though is that WNs need to adopt leaders and inspiration from positive sources not negative ones. Hitler is a huge negative, he is as helpful a symbol to the movement as Charles Manson or Timothy McVeigh is. Nothing turns off potential persuadables like Hitler does.

    But that doesn’t mean I have to buy every argument from everyone who agrees that Hitler and the NSDAP need mothballing.

    Greg Johnson:

    Trainspotter is usually spot on, but not today. It is the American in all of us — the lover of decentralization, romantic individualism, etc. — that got us into this mess.

    If you mean that a decentralist only paves the way for a centralist, maybe, but I’m afraid there’s too much appeal to decentralization for me to throw it away. I’m going to my grave a decentralist. I may compromise because I place survival over all else, but freedom is a close second, and freedom and decentralization are synonymous in my mind.

    But I doubt that “maybe.” I think a people committed to decentralization will have it, and one that is not won’t. And I think somewhere along the way we forgot that. How could a people that values decentralization have invaded the South?

    60Ivan

    You make good points. I think there’s a lot to be said for further investigation into the topic, at the least.

    I’m worn out on the subject now, but for a final thought I’ll add something that I’ve always had to keep in mind while thinking about history: the people who were there probably saw things far more clearly than we give them credit for; in fact, their vision at the time might easily have been clearer than ours in hindsight. Keep this in mind when judging the past.

  39. Why isn’t the oppression of the Arabs by the non-Gentiles in Israel held up as FAR AND AWAY the world’s greatest extant example of the evils of ethnonationalism? Why, if you thrust this under the nose of the sheep (who supposedly oppose ethnonationalism, eugenics, etc., because of Hitler) just give you blank looks? Why do they ALWAYS refuse to answer (I NEVER, EVER get an answer to this from the sheep), but give you a dissertation if you ask them why they think opposition to ethnonationalism and Hitler are joined at the hip?

    Funny, the media-government-academia complex and the sheep are indistinguishable in this respect. Whodathunkit?

    Riddle me that, batman.

  40. INFO: Why do you persist in proving my point? Which is that some people just choose to hate, even when the truth is staring them squarely in the face?

    Well, as I said earlier, my father, grandfather and husband all fought and shed blood for this country, so you and those like you could have the freedom to spout unwarranted hate for their daughter, granddaughter and wife.

    You’re welcome.

  41. “JewishWhiteNationalist” is like “CommunistNationalSocialist.” Pick one already, you can’t be both. You can be a Euro ethnonationalist, or a non-Gentile (ethnonationalism is inherent), not both.

  42. I think its fine for WNs who want to, to idolize Hitler privately. I have a skinhead friend who collects everything he can get his hands on from the WW2 era….Nazi daggers, badges, armbands, etc. Its part of his Germanic heritage (he says).

    I once had a Jewish student in my class who did all of this as well.

    One time he came into the school dressed in an Afrika Korps uniform shirt.

  43. Both good points, ColdEquation. Hitler trusted v. Ribbentrop on Britain’s “public” pledges to Poland; he’d heard it all before, and expected to get another “deal”, not a European War. Of the private assurances – the ones that mattered – he knew nothing. On Moscow and Napoleon, yes, exactly: this was Hitler’s thinking too, via that long seance he had at N’s tomb in Paris after the 1940 defeat of France. After all, N. took Moscow, still lost, and therefore…..Actually, Stalin’s regime was a good deal more rigid, centralized, and brittle than the Czar’s. Attacking an amorphous, feudal Russia in Napoleon’s time was liking punching a pillow; if they don’t surrender, you lose. But Stalin’s regime was already disintegrating as the Germans closed in on Moscow in September-October, 1941: mass panic, NKVD officers assaulted in the streets, etc. Had the city fallen, I think the evidence is fairly strong that communist central political and military control would have gone with it. The Reds understood this: that’s why they fought so desperately to hold Moscow.

  44. Some hook-nosed, beady eyed wandering trash from a desert waste-land will never by my co-ethnic.

    Whites may have to revive the mighty term ARYAN to let Jews know they are not welcome.

    HAIL HITLER!

  45. Guys,

    Can we all be at least civil with our guests — as much as we may disagree with them??

  46. Kulaks: Its OK, he’s just proving my point, that some WNs, unfortunately, are guilty of irrational hatred. The sooner people like that are gone from the movement, the sooner the masses of White people will sit up and listen to the message.

    I can certainly understand disliking or even hating the leftist jews who are out to destroy everything you (and I) hold dear. But to attack someone who happens to be Jewish and who AGREES with you, is just asinine, I’m sorry. You don’t see me attacking anyone, do you?

    Well, one good thing has happened out of my time here: in reading some of the blog, I’ve discovered the blog of another Jewish WN! I know a few in my personal life, but didn’t know there were any others producing a blog. Now I do, so I have this blog to thank for that!

  47. Incidentally, Farley, you gave what you think is a description of me when you don’t even know what I look like. For one, I am female, and for two, if you were to pass me on the street you would never in a million years think I am Jewish. I look 100% like my nonJewish parent, and zero like my Jewish one. Trust me, you would never believe I was a Jew. 🙂

    So much for your “hooked nose, beady eye” stereotype.

  48. G.Johnson/Viktor Suvorov: “Western Europe, Fall 1941: The Red Army sweeps on from Germany and France toward Italy and Spain. Everywhere the NKVD imposes the bloody terror already suffered by the tortured nations of the East. Political opponents, former army officers, shopkeepers, landowners, small farmers, members of youth movements and cultural associations–millions are rounded up.”

    At least, the Jews partly lost their grip on Russia in the end, and there was no third-world invasion of Eastern Europe. I doubt a Soviet invasion of Western Europe would have been a complete disaster.

    Message to Putin: If you’d like to invade Western Europe, please do !

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