Are Jews White? III

The third installment in the Ted Sallis vs. Guy White debate. – Hunter Wallace

Ted Sallis:

Guy White (as well as his mixed race fellows “won over” to his blog) are at it again.

First, some minor points.
a. I am not an “AS” (”anti-Semite”). Actually, I believe Guy White to be a vicious, Jew hating anti-Semite since, like “ASs” the world over, he wishes to deny to the Ashkenazim their objectively determined lineage. My own views on the issue is somewhere in between Jared Taylor and, say, Hunter Wallace. However, I’m not going to accept people lying about the science.

b. The issue about the Berbers was simply to demonstrate that Guy White is silly and ignorant. Admittedly, that’s sort of ad hominem but richly deserved.

c. [this also applies to other forums, see below] I’m not interested in debating definitions of “white.” I am interesting in genetic relatedness, race, and the political implications of racial and ethnic genetics. People can define “white” however they wish. That’s not going to change the genetic facts.

d. Guy White claims he never said that Jews were “identical” to Europeans. Yes, indeed, he never used the word “identical.” Instead, he showed global genetic analyses in which the Ashkenazim were “smack dab” in the middle of the European cluster. You figure out what he wanted to suggest with that.

e. Is he going to admit being wrong about the Fst issue? Are Jews as close to Germans as are SE Europeans/Romanians? What about the Middle Eastern mixture issue? If an Iraqi marries a European and has an offspring, is the offspring European?

f. Now to his outright distortions of my views:

The only people whose DNA is identical are identical twins. Even though, my brothers and I have the same parents, we are genetically distinguishable. That doesn’t mean that we belong to different races.

Who said it did? Talk about a strawman. But this argument of Guy White and his hybridized followers can go too far. Gee, your brother and you are not identical and you are not different races. A Dane and a Nigerian are also not identical, so…

See next. It is relative genetic distance.

If you wanted to deal with clusters, my brothers will cluster closer to me than my cousins. Again, this doesn’t mean that we belong to different races.

Did I ever say differently? The issue is of relative distance? As in negro>chinaman>south asian>arab>ASHKENAZIM>ROMANIAN>GERMAN>random englishman>englishman’s (unmixed english) cousin>englishman’s brother

You can draw the line of “white” or “race” where you want there, it doesn’t change the data.

Before we start delving into genetic studies, we must establish what we are talking about here.

We are talking about how you, your mixed race followers, delusional Marxists, and others either do not understand current population genetics data and/or distort those data for their own agendas.

The first level of human division is race. Then ethnicity. And so on until we get to individual differences.

Gee, no kidding. Did you think that all up yourself?

It is obviously false to say, as Ted Sallis alleges, that all people of the same race are the same, and those who aren’t identical are of a different race.

Gee, who is paraphrasing the other person now? At least when I do so, I am honest, unlike the liar Guy White. I invite the reader to go back to my original essay as well as the cuckoldry article at TOO. I openly state that of course different types of Europeans are different from each other. And for godssakes, if I comment on Fst differences within Europe, obviously the peoples are not identical. Where and when did I say all people of the same race are identical?

Note to Guy White: I know more about this than you do.

As regards comments made on this issue at comments threads on other forums, they are not even worth answering.

What I wrote:
No one can deny that different European groups — even closely related and geographically-near ethnies — can be genetically distinguished from each other. Modern genetic analyses can do this, and future, more fine-grained methodologies will perform even better to make these distinctions.

Guy White:
It is obviously false to say, as Ted Sallis alleges, that all people of the same race are the same…

Guy White: Liar or cognitively impaired (or both).

I am also not sure why Guy White is so hysterical on this issue (assuming for the moment that he is pro-Jewish and not a crazed anti-Semite).

With respect to Taylor’s views on the “JQ” as expressed in the Giles interview (and commented on by Mr. Wallace on his own blog) I am agnostic. I certainly do not reject the viewpoint out of hand. Some of it makes sense. However, I do not wholly accept it either; my mind is not made up on the subject.

This is, however, a different issue than “White Advocate’s” insistence – and (his denials to the contrary) Guy White’s agreement – on the proposition that the Ashkenazim are just another European ethnic group.

Are the Ashkenazim European in the same sense European gentile groups are? Current data suggest “no” – but if this changes then my opinion will certainly follow where the findings lead. Are the Ashkenazim – as Guy White justifiably points out – genetically close to Europeans? Yes, there are. Are they “white?” That is a matter of opinion. Whether the Ashkenazim (or any other group) are, or are not, “white” is not something that can be determined solely by rational objectivity. It is to a large extent a matter of opinion, and I see it as a waste of time to debate inclusion/exclusion to vague categories that are defined to a large extent by personal opinion. Other categories of continental identity, genetic distance, ancestry, and – more subjectively I admit – civilizational affiliation (e.g., “western”) are easier to define and discern.

Do I agree with and support the work of Kevin MacDonald? Yes I do; I find it absolutely convincing, with great explanatory power. MacDonald’s work is of fundamental importance in understanding the modern world and the current dire situation of the West.

Can MacDonald’s work be reconciled with Taylor’s view as expressed to Giles? Possibly, dependent upon whether Jews realize that the destruction of the West and of Europeans is not in their interest and whether they are willing to genuinely assimilate into “Euro-America.” These are issues of concern for those who support Jewish inclusion; instead of lying about the opinions of individuals trying to set the record straight on the science, I’d advise the likes of White/Advocate/Jobling et al to try and alter the opinions and viewpoints of Jews toward Europeans, the West, and assimilation (for the latter: Guy White, meet Elliot Abrams).

This would seem to be an excellent topic for Prof. Hart’s next conference.

Iceman
Guest
lol. http://www.freemediaproductions.info/Editorials/2009/12/07/jw-hollidays-ocean-analogy-counterargument/ Europeans have middle eastern genetic foundations. Southern Europeans still appear Mediterranean. It isn’t until Northern Europe that the Med/Alpine appearance becomes common, though of course terms like “nordic” and “alpine” are not scientific (but Mediterranean is scientific). That is because Northern Europeans were genetically isolated in India for part of history and then re-entered Europe. But Italians, Greeks, Spaniards etc. are still visually Middle Eastern even though of course genetically distinguishable. The argument that the Caucasoid race was created in Europe, and then the Middle East racially mixed with Negroids to get darker is laughable. So since I’ve… Read more »
White Preservationist
Guest
I’ve been away for about a week, and I regret that I’ve missed so many good discussions here. Jews are not ‘White’ as the term ‘White’ (in the USA) relates to Northern/Northwestern Europeans, or ‘Nordics’ if you prefer, and also what some refer to as ‘Celts’ from the British Isles — Jews are Caucasoids of course, but they are not ‘White’ (in American parlance) because, to restate the facts, the word ‘White’ in the USA typically refers to people of Northern/Northwestern European or what is sometimes called ‘Nordic’ descent. Jews are very recent immigrants to Europe, having been there for… Read more »
Sam Davidson
Guest

It’s funny how we intellectualize this issue. I don’t need a genetic study to confirm my belief that this person is of different stock than myself:

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Metal Gear
Guest
Seriously, you guys can argue whatever you’d like to, but at least admit that history is what it is. You can change the future. You can’t change the past. American law has never distinguished between Nords and Meds and when it has discriminated against Jews in universities, never labeled Jews as non-White. Analogously, the Irish were discriminated against in Business but never considered “non-white” meaning categorized with the Blacks instead of Whites in Jim Crow legislation American law discriminated by nationality. Yes it has argued for nationality imposed quotas to limit immigration in 1924, but no law ever said Nordics… Read more »
Z.O.G.
Guest

Who let the dogs out?

😆

Z.O.G.
Guest

I was referring to the illegal alien Mestizo advocate Jewess Tamar Jacoby.

Behavior Defines Us
Guest

Why not a socially or behaviorally determined analysis? Here’s a possible way to distinguish among the peoples.

The diverse white American peoples are those who do not defame the diverse white American peoples.

The culture of critique (really a campaign of defamation) clearly excludes anyone we would want to associate with in our organizations, including those who might be genetically related but committed to our destruction by implementing cultural tools to silence us.

And I hope our future organizational aspirations will place the freedom of association very high indeed among our protected rights and privileges.

Armor
Guest

” tamarrjacoby.jpg “

She looks somewhat like Melanie Phillips.

OldRight
Guest

Metal Gear
American law has never distinguished between Nords and Meds and when it has discriminated against Jews in universities, never labeled Jews as non-White.

And just look what happened to America as a result. America is a model of how not to deal with the jewish problem.

Wikitopian
Guest
I don’t care to debate with either Guy White or Ted Sallis. As Hunter has shown time and time again, Guy is congenitally incapable of developing an honest perspective on the scope and nature of Jewish influence on Western Civilization. He lands some blows at character defects common among anti-Semites but his refusal to seriously confirm the scope of Jewish power is both sad and implies deceptive intent to me (I’m not accusing, mind you). As for Ted, there’s a real lack of sobriety and discipline in both formulating his conclusions and protecting his conclusions from honest critique. He did… Read more »
Robert Campbell
Admin
FB, In the “My Awakening” thread, you said that Richard McCulloch considers Ashkenazi Jews to be Nordish. I did not get a chance to reply before Hunter locked it, and I don’t want to unlock it and start that nonsense up again, but I think I should clarify that point. Richard McCulloch does not consider Ashkenazi to be Nordish. Here is what it says on his web site: “Extra-territorial non-indigenous European ethnic groups: Jews — Divided into Ashkenazic, Sephardic and Oriental branches. All trace their pre-Diaspora (the dispersion of Jews outside of Israel) origins to the ancient Hebrews, who originally… Read more »
Marwinsing
Guest

“Are Jews White? III”
Who cares. Any chimpanzee with half a brain cell would tell you that the above is not important. The real problem with whites is the internal war between the sexes. Jew-instigated or not, therein lies our problem. Now I beg someone here on this forum to prove me wrong.

Kasimir Petrenkov
Guest
“Europeans have middle eastern genetic foundations. Southern Europeans still appear Mediterranean. It isn’t until Northern Europe that the Med/Alpine appearance becomes common, though of course terms like “nordic” and “alpine” are not scientific (but Mediterranean is scientific). That is because Northern Europeans were genetically isolated in India for part of history and then re-entered Europe. But Italians, Greeks, Spaniards etc. are still visually Middle Eastern even though of course genetically distinguishable.” – iceman Lol yourself, this is complete rubbish. The Aryans came from NW Eurasia, there was not one particular point where they all evolved. Only in the minds of… Read more »
AngryJew
Guest

Please, please go out into the real world and do your homework. I ask you meet just some Berbers – and then quack about them being non-white!

Everysingle berber I’ve ever met, was significantly whiter than Arabs. I have not met Taureg, or Sahelian Berbers – who are no doubt mixed.

You cannot score on the berbers! You know not of what you speak.

Iceman
Guest

That’s actually not true. Italians and Greeks and Spainards look like Middle Easterners not because of admixture but because of their original orgins. This is proven.
http://racialreality.110mb.com/

The aryan languages were invented in Europe but the north-south genetic divide occurred because temporarily, tribes left Europe for India and selected for phenotype under a caste system and then returned to Europe. When they returned, they created the north-south divide.

Mark
Guest

Gwyneth is half Jewish, her mother being Central Nordish (Dutch). Her father was distinctly Jewish, albeit depigmented.

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Z.O.G.
Guest

She looks somewhat like Melanie Phillips.

No, she looks like an inbred rat. 😀

Chuck U. Farley77
Guest

“Now I beg someone here on this forum to prove me wrong. ”

Read Otto Weininger.

Jewishness and Femininity are two sides of the same coin!

(The solution is for these two Archetypes to actively consciously decide to stop being negative forces in the Universe. Only when this has been done will Jews and Females be able to live in Harmony with Higher Aryan Man. )

ATBOTL
Guest

Iceman, your theories about the history of European people are ludicrously out of touch with reality. I suggest you do some reading on current genetic, linguistic and archeological findings.

Z
Guest

Jews are not a race, religion, ethnic group or even a tribe, but an international criminal syndicate, a ‘mestizo mafia’ of sorts, whose members are a genetic amalgamation of the nations of which they dwell in; of which there are plenty of ‘shabbos goy’ helpers and water boys to do their bidding.

And when it comes to so-called “mischlinges”, the zionist-inspired ‘one-drop rule’ on Jewishness is utterly retarded.

http://whitewraithe.wordpress.com/the-jews-are-not-a-race/

Fred Scrooby
Guest
#19: “Jewishness and Femininity are two sides of the same coin!” Chuck of course meant “Jewishness and Feminism.” That’s correct: they’re two sides of the same coin. Now, someone will come along and say, “Were that so, Jews who are the most Jewish would be the most ‘Feminist.’ But the most Jewish women, the Ultra-Orthodox, are the least ‘Feminist’ of Jewish women, in fact are among the least ‘Feminist’ of all women. They totally reject ‘Feminism.’ So that proves it’s not Jewishness that causes “Feminism” but something else. That something else is non-denominational liberalism.” What this argumentation ignores of course… Read more »
Svigor
Guest
This is the sort of thing that pisses me off about Amren’s editorial policy: The reason why blacks hate whites has absolutely nothing to do with the past. Blacks hate whites for the same reason Nazis hated Jews. They were too successful which made Nazis jealous. (Black Gangs Vented Hatred for Whites in Downtown Attacks) That made it through, but you can bet your ass my response won’t: Since you’re drawing parallels between blacks and Nazis, allow me to draw some between blacks and Jews. Neither whites nor Nazis freak out if blacks or Jews or anyone else don’t want… Read more »
Svigor
Guest

In all fairness I should add that Sailer, whose editorial policy I consider to be moderate (he lets quite a bit through but censors a lot too), seems to consider this parallel radioactive as he’s refused to post it the many times I’ve used it to respond to the “WNs as jealous niggers” argument; he did post it once, when I added a question as to why it’s beyond the Pale to respond in kind.

AngryJew
Guest
What makes me an Angry Jew? The gibberish about “Aryans”. Please dig your head out of your…what century are you living in? “Aryans”? Nordics? Who the hell are Nordics? Half of the Eurasian steppe is littered with remnants of Scythians six feet tall 200 pounds, blond and red haired. They would have spoken a language a modern Iranian could understand. A good number of Nordics I’ve met had eye slits! The Runes you find in Germany are equally found in Central Asia. The “anglo-saxons” are thoroughly mixed with Celtcs, and a great deal of English DNA is Iberian – i.e.… Read more »
Svigor
Guest

Normally I’d agree but I’d like to see an end to his tolerance of judeophilic WN-baiting. If someone can explain to me the tactical value to us of Amren allowing judeophilic WN-baiting, but not allowing responses, I’d change my mind.

Tanstaafl
Guest

Diversity Digest | Volume 10, Number 2 | Complicating Diversity Categories: Jewish Identity in the Classroom:

Diversity educators often hear from Jewish students when talking about race that they do not see themselves as “white,” but rather as “Jews.” In keeping with this self-identification, Jews should be understood as a distinctive identity group which is often described using racialized language.

danielj
Guest

What makes me an Angry Jew?

So… We know what makes you angry now, but what makes you a “Jew” exactly? What makes you such a pure breed?

Fred Scrooby
Guest
“Diversity educators often hear from Jewish students when talking about race that they do not see themselves as ‘white,’ but rather as ‘Jews.’ In keeping with this self-identification, Jews should be understood as a distinctive identity group which is often described using racialized language.” ( — quoted in Tanstaafl’s comment) This revelation of course supports the contention that all these non-stop post-Jewish-Revolt (i.e., post-Sixties) attacks on “whites” by all these Jews (non-stop verbal attacks, non-stop political attacks, non-stop legistlative attacks, etc.) aren’t what they’re implicitly and explicitly billed as and what many believe they are, namely “attacks on whites by… Read more »
Z
Guest
What makes me an Angry Jew? The gibberish about “Aryans”. Please dig your head out of your…what century are you living in? “Aryans”? Nordics? Who the hell are Nordics? __ Better question: (Drum roll…) WHAT EXACTLY THE HELL ARE “SEMITES”??? You dare mock us when it is the ‘Jews’ (some of the most mixed-race people in the world) who are even more loopy when it comes to all matters racial and ancestral, and often outright make stuff up when it comes to questions of biology and geneology. Like the way you all fancy yourselves as both White Europeans *and* as… Read more »
Grimoire
Guest
Start with this: “The aryan languages were invented in Europe but the north-south genetic divide occurred because temporarily, tribes left Europe for India and selected for phenotype under a caste system and then returned to Europe. When they returned, they created the north-south divide.” And on what is this based on? Your best guess? Stab in the dark? You know nothing about the Aryans – why do you write about them? These comments are so ignorant I feel embarrassed to read them. Read of the ‘Migration’ sagas, of which describes the cyclical migrations of the Visigoths, the Ostrogoths and the… Read more »
Grimoire
Guest

@Angry Jew:
Reread your post and realize you are an Israeli. I would have wasted far less words on you. Before I thought you were young and read a lot of jewbooks with your talk of scythians and white berbers. But no, your an Israeli and just very stupid. I’ve worked with a lot of Israeli ex military (diving) and you are all tremendously stupid. but sure of yourselves. Are you on a professional incursion or why are you here?

Armor
Guest

F.Scrooby: “In attacking “whites” Jews these past fifty years most definitely were NOT attacking themselves — most definitely NOT attacking Jews.”

Proof of that is their activism and propaganda “against antisemitism”, against free speech, and about “the holocaust”. No one is less open to critique than they are.

The Jewish discourse: “We white people” are the cancer of humanity… And anyone, among us white people, who says a word against Jews, must be severely punished.

iceman / metal gear
Guest

Ted Sallis is a quack.

Metal Gear / Iceman
Guest

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/06/03/the-dna-of-abraham-s-children.html

Aside from the fact that in my opinion, the population of Palestine is “white” mainly (except for any negroid elements), Just mixed at high level during the Roman Empire then continued to mix at lower levels during their stay in Eastern Europe. So in my opinion, Jews are not only White from the standpoint of being similar to Europeans, but they’ve mixed with Europeans too.

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